Posts by SwedishChef

159

Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped in

is jesus christ the same person as michael the archangel [chief angel], as the watchtower society teaches?

what does the bible say?

here are all of the scriptures that mention michael the archangel:.

SwedishChef,
Is this the best you can do? Anyone can read my posts and see it is the other way around. trinitarians always resort to tactics such as yours when they lose such discussions. I see you are no different. The trinity doctrine is a lie. God is a single Being with only ONE name. The Son is another Being entirely with two names one of which is Michael. This is what this discussion is all about and this is the discussion trinitarians lost.
Joseph

No Joseph, the best I have is Scripture, but that has had little effect on your beliefs. I have done nothing but back my beliefs with the Bible, and it has proved to be futile with you. I was more the less making a closing statement to end my participation in this discussion, but you have not hesitated to say that I have "resorted" to using these "tactics" because I "know I've lost". I believe this thread speaks for itself, and your views scream "unbiblical!"

Joseph, if youve read earlier posts you would know that I believe when the Bible refers to Michael it is referring to Jesus Christ. Again, you classify all Trinitarians together under one umbrella.

"This is the way Trinitarians twist the meaning of texts and discussions and I want everyone to see this."

I would like everyone to see the way you apply ALL Trinitarians to Undiss statement. You really enjoy stereotyping.

Joseph,
You never did refute Zechariah 12:10:
SwedishChef,
All this has been covered and it has been shown how YHWH can be represented personally by others. So scriptures especially prophetic ones can be fulfilled by such representatives.

Joseph, your ignoring that fact that Jehovah is the speaker in this passage. By what authority do you say that it was not really Jehovah speaking?

The situation is very much like the angel in the burning bush. This angel said it was God and yet we know it was not. However it was authorized to act as God and function the same as if it was actually Jehovah. Our Lord functions the same way.

Oh really, Joseph, we know it was not God? And why is that? Because you say so? The angel in the burning bush was indeed God manifesting Himself to Moses. No creature has the authority to call itself "I AM" and "Jehovah God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" - and no creature has. We have every reason to believe that what appeared to Moses was God Himself.

Edited by - SwedishChef on 11 February 2003 20:35:36

159

Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped in

is jesus christ the same person as michael the archangel [chief angel], as the watchtower society teaches?

what does the bible say?

here are all of the scriptures that mention michael the archangel:.

SwedishChef

The trinity is not the truth

Joseph, your really beginning to sound like a broken record. Just who are you trying to convince of this?

Out of all your boastings you have yet back up a single claim. Time and time again clear Scripture is presented which you either grievously distort or completely blow off. Often in response you call us deceptive and spiritually impaired. Please! Anyone with an open mind can look over this thread and see that you have no case, and we have a tremendous amount of backing.

It is very clear that you are putting your own twist on the Scriptures and not letting them speak for themselves. I see no more point in debating someone with such a disposition.

I sincerely hope that God gives you no rest until you become acquainted with the real Jesus Christ, who is the Lord of all, not a created angel.

159

Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped in

is jesus christ the same person as michael the archangel [chief angel], as the watchtower society teaches?

what does the bible say?

here are all of the scriptures that mention michael the archangel:.

SwedishChef

Joseph,

You never did refute Zechariah 12:10:

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

Here Jehovah describes Himself as being pierced. You will have a hard time trying to explain this away.

John 19:34-37 "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

Jesus is Jehovah.

Edited by - SwedishChef on 2 February 2003 23:15:0

159

Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped in

is jesus christ the same person as michael the archangel [chief angel], as the watchtower society teaches?

what does the bible say?

here are all of the scriptures that mention michael the archangel:.

SwedishChef

Joseph,

Undis says that you said in another thread:

1st Timothy 2:5 "destroys the concept of the Trinity".

Care telling me how? It actually reinforces the concept of the Trinity. 1 Timothy 2:5 says "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

There is but ONE mediator. Now read...

Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

Hmmm, here we see the Holy Spirit makes intercession, or is a mediator. But wait, there is only one mediator, and that is Christ. But it says here that the Holy Spirit is a mediator. Could it be that Christ and the Holy Spirit are one?

Yes, this concept is taught in the Bible. Christ and the Holy Spirit are one.

Here is another example of how Christ and the Spirit are one:

John 14:16,17 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

Jesus says that the Holy Spirit shall dwell in the believer.

18,20 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you...At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."
Now here in the same exact context, Christ says that "I will come to you", and "in you".

Now we see that the Holy Spirit and Christ make intersession, and dwells in us. If the Holy Spirit dwells in us, then Christ does also. These Two are One.

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

We are the temple of God, and His Spirit dwells in us, which is the Holy Spirit. And if the Holy Spirit dwells in us, then Christ dwells in us. God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One.

159

Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped in

is jesus christ the same person as michael the archangel [chief angel], as the watchtower society teaches?

what does the bible say?

here are all of the scriptures that mention michael the archangel:.

SwedishChef

Joseph,

Jehovah, in Isaiah 44:6, says: "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

There is the same phraseology spoken by Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:17.

"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:"
Here Christ claims the title "First and Last", which is same title Jehovah claimed in Isaiah.

And how do you explain this Joseph?

Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

Here, Jehovah says "they shall look upon me whom they have pierced". Now we all know that it was the Lord Jesus who was pierced. How do you explain this?

Revelation 1:7,8 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Here is a passage parallel to Zechariah 12:10. Jesus Christ is claiming to be the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, and the Almighty. We know it is Him speaking because the context demands it, and because it describes Him as being pierced.

Joseph, you have to turn a blind eye to a lot of Scripture to proclaim that Jesus isn't God.

Edited by - SwedishChef on 31 January 2003 21:14:21

159

Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped in

is jesus christ the same person as michael the archangel [chief angel], as the watchtower society teaches?

what does the bible say?

here are all of the scriptures that mention michael the archangel:.

SwedishChef

Joseph,

Thanks for that thorough explanation.

13

Examples in the Bible?

by happyout in

i am not in a position to do research on this, but maybe someone can help me out.

dubs don't celebrate birthdays because the two examples in the bible were negative, right?

well, each time jesus went into a "temple", didn't he have a negative experience?

SwedishChef

"I'd never thought about how hard it would be for a simple Jesus type person to single handedly walk into the Temple and start assaulting people."

Hmmm. How can the Messiah, who is God almighty in the flesh, who created the Heavens and earth, ever manage to preach and drive merchants out of His temple?

This argument is based upon the assumption that the Bible isn't true.

159

Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped in

is jesus christ the same person as michael the archangel [chief angel], as the watchtower society teaches?

what does the bible say?

here are all of the scriptures that mention michael the archangel:.

SwedishChef

Joseph,

The name which translates "God" in Genesis chapter 1 is "Elohim". This is a plural noun, which indicates God is not one, nor two, but at least three. I'm interested in what your thoughts are on this.

159

Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped in

is jesus christ the same person as michael the archangel [chief angel], as the watchtower society teaches?

what does the bible say?

here are all of the scriptures that mention michael the archangel:.

SwedishChef

JosephMalik,

As usual, your talking in circles, and ever so slyly avoiding the problems.

"How do you know? Do you know everyone?"

What I do know is that your views are completely foreign to the Bible. A lot of what you say is imagined in your head and therefore unique to yourself. It seems, though, that your views most closely match that of JWs.

"Can it be that such angels are also in the form of God?"
"Just how does the form of an angel differ from the form of God."

Please Joseph, ask a question that deserves a response.

"Such unsupported statements may play on the emotions of some but since you said them then it is your responsibility to provide proof?"

I see quoting direct passages from the Bible which plainly state what I am saying isn't enough. Good for you Joseph, you are beyond the Word of God.

"Just quoting texts without end only proves that you know how to cut and paste."
Just blowing off crystal clear texts that I cut and paste only proves your utter delusion.

I do believe something has been proven here, Joseph, and that is your inability to refute the texts I have quoted.

Edited by - SwedishChef on 28 January 2003 16:27:10

70

WHERE DID ALL THAT WATER GO?

by MYOHNSEPH in

as i recall, "the society" at one time taught the flood waters of noah's day came from an immense canopy of water, which formed sometime during creation and hovered above the earth until it all broke loose in the flood.

o.k., cool.

but does anyone know of an explanation of where it all went afterwards?

SwedishChef

AlanF,

May God open your eyes to the truth.