Thanks OneEyedJoe for you good wishes. I hope the same for your worldview carpet.
Galaxie, loved your thought!
Seraphim23
JoinedPosts by Seraphim23
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51
The limits of science.
by Seraphim23 infor a long time i have accepted that when a theist inserts god into some as yet not understood scientific matter, it constitutes a god of the gaps argument.
as a theist myself, the problem with this for me, is that it implies an arbitrary limit on gods ingenuity.
for example, the idea that god created automatic processes to do certain things in nature, and yet with other things the need for a direct hand to either tweak or directly organise!
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51
The limits of science.
by Seraphim23 infor a long time i have accepted that when a theist inserts god into some as yet not understood scientific matter, it constitutes a god of the gaps argument.
as a theist myself, the problem with this for me, is that it implies an arbitrary limit on gods ingenuity.
for example, the idea that god created automatic processes to do certain things in nature, and yet with other things the need for a direct hand to either tweak or directly organise!
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Seraphim23
Thank you Frazzled UBM I appreciate that.
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51
The limits of science.
by Seraphim23 infor a long time i have accepted that when a theist inserts god into some as yet not understood scientific matter, it constitutes a god of the gaps argument.
as a theist myself, the problem with this for me, is that it implies an arbitrary limit on gods ingenuity.
for example, the idea that god created automatic processes to do certain things in nature, and yet with other things the need for a direct hand to either tweak or directly organise!
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Seraphim23
It’s a shame that these things are always seen through the polarised lenses of religion vs science. I love science but I am open to the idea that it may be incapable of reaching ultimate truth, which could lie somewhere beyond. Indeed the very strength of science relies on the fact it deals with theories and not proofs, as mathematics does.
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Satan and the demons, ghosts, spirits, fortune tellers. Are they real?
by KateWild ini believe in god.
i don't believe he punishes or rewards people.
so by the same extention i don't believe any spirit beings can communicate with or influence humans.. many who do not believe in god though, have gone to fortune tellers.
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Seraphim23
KateWild I love the open minded manner of the your question.
I don’t believe Satan is a real being despite being Christian but I do think there are `spirits` for want of a better word. I’ve had a few strange experiencers over the years, most of which centred around the death of loved ones. My own view at the moment about these things is that there is a relationship between the physical, mathematical and consciousness domains. I think these three “ domains” overlap and relate to one another. The lines of communication I think relate to how these domains relate to each other.
The universe we see correlates to mathematics but is itself not mathematics, indeed some mathematics done by mathematicians has no relation to the physics of the universe, whereas all physics in the universe does relate to mathematics. So maths is kind of bigger than the universe. Then the domain of mind seems to defy any attempt to reduce it to a mere mathematical algorithmic description. The famous hard problem of consciousness rears its head at this point. The mind of course can understand mathematics in a way that no step by step computational computer can. So there is some mysterious link between these three worlds. So the communications from spirits is also quite mysterious, although sometimes quite clear. Sometimes not clear it has to be said.
Just a few thought for what it’s worth.
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51
The limits of science.
by Seraphim23 infor a long time i have accepted that when a theist inserts god into some as yet not understood scientific matter, it constitutes a god of the gaps argument.
as a theist myself, the problem with this for me, is that it implies an arbitrary limit on gods ingenuity.
for example, the idea that god created automatic processes to do certain things in nature, and yet with other things the need for a direct hand to either tweak or directly organise!
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Seraphim23
Its pessimistic I guess if one believes that science is the universal route to ultimate truth but I think that view might be down to preconceived notions.
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51
The limits of science.
by Seraphim23 infor a long time i have accepted that when a theist inserts god into some as yet not understood scientific matter, it constitutes a god of the gaps argument.
as a theist myself, the problem with this for me, is that it implies an arbitrary limit on gods ingenuity.
for example, the idea that god created automatic processes to do certain things in nature, and yet with other things the need for a direct hand to either tweak or directly organise!
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Seraphim23
For a long time I have accepted that when a theist inserts God into some as yet not understood scientific matter, it constitutes a God of the gaps argument. As a theist myself, the problem with this for me, is that it implies an arbitrary limit on Gods ingenuity. For example, the idea that God created automatic processes to do certain things in nature, and yet with other things the need for a direct hand to either tweak or directly organise! These two are at odds because the question arises of why the need for a direct tweak when a very clever mind could include all that was needed in some original instant of creation? A seed doesn’t need someone to go in and adjust it at the half way point. Nature itself does the adjusting.
So to me what we call `processes` is at odds with direct intervention, less God be less ingenious than he could be. So it is a case of `processes` or direct input, which circumvents or eliminates the need for processes. Processes themselves simply put, are causes and their effects. Thus whatever effect is desired then the cause will be tailored accordingly as it were. Science deals with the study of such processes in nature and these can be understood because, from a theistic point of view, if they were not understandable, we as human beings could not navigate a seemingly random world and our freedom would be curtailed severely. Walking for instance is a process that can be understood. We understand that walking produces movement and in recent history the mathematical reason why this is so! One pushes in one direction and we go in the opposite direction. We can’t push the earth away, as it is so much bigger, so the energy pushes us forward instead relative to the earth because the energy has to go somewhere. God doesn’t have to push us along if we want to move. It all takes care of itself with the benefit that we can build, design, navigate, and so on because processes can be understood in a world that mathematically relates to itself in multiple ways.
However there is a problem in that the beginning point in nature, has to be either complex in order to accommodate the desired aims and directions of creation as with a seed, or simple but reliant on other pre-existing factors. What is implied by this is an infinite regression of unknown things before the universe came to be. In a sense there has to be some kind of nature outside of nature. One cause cannot create many effects, unless there were many things to be effected. Or one cause has to be many causes in one, in order to produce many effects.
So if there are somehow two types of nature as it were, then one might be classed as the supernatural and the other, natural. One is apparently finite and the other connected to some infinite regression thing. One is understandable and comprehensible, and the other not. If this is all true, it would mean science has a fundamental limit in that certain valid gaps in understanding could never be answered with a scientific method.
So there are two types of gaps. Theists often insert God into gaps in understanding when it is not warranted to do so in a vain hope to prove God in some material sense. They sometimes limit understating based on an over literalistic reading of Genesis and so forth. On the other hand, those who believe that science can understand everything, given enough time, might also be guilty of a similar sin to that of the God of the gaps literalists. It might be that some gaps are literally outside the domain of science. Some theists very easily try to insert God into unanswered questions, which as yet have no answer, when in many cases science indeed will come up with the answer in time. In some cases it has done so already. However some gaps may be outside of science itself. So when some say that science will in time come up with the answers to all the gaps, or that even if it doesn’t, the answer, even if forever out of sight, would be scientific in nature, they might be wrong.
Doesn’t science point to questions that seem to be outside of science in terms of the answer? Yes indeed! How can the laws of physics create the laws of physics, when there were no laws of physics would be one such question? Something outside of science is needed here it would seem? On the other hand, the question of how to get life from non-life would seem to be a question science should answer in time, less God be having to tweak his universe as result of not being clever enough to get the processes right in the first place! What goes on above, outside, behind the latitude of the human mind and the scientific finite universe, would seem to be a valid gap but not a scientific one.
The mere existence of what seem to be valid questions that pierce the limits of science, is itself evidence against the science only view. A fundamental separation of nature and the supernatural seems in order to me. Although the existence of the supernatural doesn’t prove God either in any objective and provable sense, it might well to some individuals on an individual level. This may or may not be the case but dogmatism seems rife on both sides of the theistic debate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL3096540179B12F8D&v=IF54xqYhIGA&feature=player_detailpage
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I know there is NO GOD
by jam inisis, plain and simple.
if there is a god there is no way he.
would allow this to occur (beheading of james foley).
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Seraphim23
I believe God exists even with such horrible things going on. Even so I was quite depressed today as I went about the duties of work. James Foley looked like such an outgoing handsome guy in his prime of life. I listened on talk radio as I went about my business as they spoke to people about this murder. I couldn’t even get my head around how people wanted to watch the video on YouTube, let alone do such a thing. In the end I had to put some music on, less my mood turn to depression. It did make me depressed none the less, despite remembering I do believe. In some ways belief in God is the final resistance to the notion that humans and animals are worth nothing, as evidenced by the universes propensity to inflict pain and death on all sooner or later. Is it perhaps loves last champion before the universes light go out forever, to think God might be real as a child hopes against hope for magic to return a beloved pet from oblivion? I won’t say I know God exists, as some say they know he doesn’t but I will say fantasy as a comfort, in the face of such cruelty, is not to be condemned. Love is stronger than hate isn’t it? Or perhaps feelings can be better than cold ruthless logic. What’s the truth? Except that is it probably beyond human logic and reason in the ultimate foundation of reality thank God!
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That's it......
by whathehadas inthis might be my last post.
i've had quite a few things on my mind over the past few years, mainly my belief in god.
i've tried to move on from the jw past but that's really being foolish.
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I LOST IT ... my JW rant today
by talesin inwell, i just couldn't hold it in anymore.. today, i exploded, talking to my mother about the family inheritance and how i am being screwed.. i told her i had been so angry lately, and just had to tell her what i was thinking, because the anger was slipping out at times, and i was making snide anti-jw comments .... which is not my way.
i'm usually quite direct.. i told her that i couldn't take being treated like a piece of dog you-know-what on the bottom of someone's shoe any longer.. that in the past couple of years, i had learned so much filth about the jws that i was getting more and more disgusted day by day.. i started shouting ... there is nothing wrong with me!!!
why do i have to be shunned when they hide child molesters???.
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Seraphim23
Dear talesin. If you want to chat, give me a call on skype. Lappeta is my name on there. I’m a good listener.
Brian.
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Why are there NO articles about JW near death experiences and death bed visions?
by freeatlast36 inmy dad died recently and was a long time jw.
we have had some interesting experiences with his passing and have been researching for other jw stories and there are none.
anyone know why?
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Seraphim23
The JW religion is a rather materialist faith in many ways and so they don’t really believe the soul is a different thing from the body. This being the case, the resurrection happens at some future time for them and so dead is dead until that time. I had an aunt that died in hospital and I saw an interesting light at the time of her death at home, where I was as a young 8 or 9 year old. A few minutes later the hospital rang and told us that she had just died. The JWs teach that Satan is responsible for such things in order to peddle the lie that “you certainly will not die” as per Genesis. Their reasoning isn’t very convincing considering the good effects these experiences tend to bestow on family members. There is a whole range of good reasoning that Satan would not be responsible for such things. For many, such experiences prove that the supernatural is a real thing, which would not be in Satan’s interest, and so on.