Posts by saorean

20

Was Paul A false Prophet?

by saorean in

i ask the question on the title because there a quite a number of statements the apostle paul made about the coming of jesus and resurrection of the holy ones that never fulfilled.

1 corinthians 15: 51, 52 (nwt) : .

i tell you a sacred secret: we will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet.

saorean

JohnAmos : your comment makes sense.

The truth though is that the specificity with which he spoke leads one to question if his sentiments were opinions or inspired prophecies.

Evidently the first century Christians had unfulfilled hopes. Because, according to the bible, they are all in their graves since Jesus has not returned. Yet Paul, Peter, James and the Apostle Paul proclaimed that their salvation was closer than when they became believers. They felt Christ return was just around the corner. Yet over 2000 years later with their flesh turned to dust, those hopes are still not fulfilled.

So I ask when they made such statements expressing strong hopes in their ascension to heaven, where they opinions or inspired words?

If they are the latter, then there's a problem. Because the inspired words failed. There's no reason to believe that what was stated would happen in their lifetime that failed will automatically happen in ours. That just wouldn't make any sense.

If their hopes were opinions, it then looses credibility.

20

Was Paul A false Prophet?

by saorean in

i ask the question on the title because there a quite a number of statements the apostle paul made about the coming of jesus and resurrection of the holy ones that never fulfilled.

1 corinthians 15: 51, 52 (nwt) : .

i tell you a sacred secret: we will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet.

saorean

JohnAmos: ofcourse it has not fulfilled yet, because Jesus has not returned. The point however is not Jesus return. The point is the people who this message was for and at what time period it was believed those words would be fulfilled.

The message was directed to the Thessalonians and Corinthians. Paul definitely did not have a generation 2000 or more away in mind when writing those words. In fact he thought those words would be fulfilled on him.

It is clear that the hope of being caught up, of which Paul claimed was a sacred secret never happened for the time and people it was intended to.

If it did not fulfill for them, that makes his "sacred secret" null and void. His prediction failed. I don't know how else to see this text. I think its clear enough.

If you have a superior explanation, please share.

Finkelstein : lol 😂 you literally pulled out the whole Wikipedia. Quite informative though.

20

Was Paul A false Prophet?

by saorean in

i ask the question on the title because there a quite a number of statements the apostle paul made about the coming of jesus and resurrection of the holy ones that never fulfilled.

1 corinthians 15: 51, 52 (nwt) : .

i tell you a sacred secret: we will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet.

saorean

Finkelstein you are spot on. Sadly, the more I read without watchtower goggles, the more my faith in the bible itself wanes.

Ding: when you read the whole context of 1 Thessalonians 4 , from probably vs 10, you'll see that he was speaking to a particular people, the Thessalonians and Corinthians (essentially those in the first century). I don't know how else to view it, but each phrase he used suggests time, and people.

His words definitely puts a strong time frame. Obviously unlike the shameless jw who have done acrobatics with dates, and given specific dates, Paul here is referring to a period of time, or their life time.

20

Was Paul A false Prophet?

by saorean in

i ask the question on the title because there a quite a number of statements the apostle paul made about the coming of jesus and resurrection of the holy ones that never fulfilled.

1 corinthians 15: 51, 52 (nwt) : .

i tell you a sacred secret: we will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet.

saorean

I ask the question on the title because there a quite a number of statements the Apostle Paul made about the coming of Jesus and resurrection of the holy ones that never fulfilled.

For example :

1 Corinthians 15: 51, 52 (NWT) :

"Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed"

1 Thessalonians 4 : 15 -18 (NWT) :

"For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words"

From the first scripture, Paul even boldly calls it a sacred secret. He expressed the conviction that they would not all die. The context shows that he was talking primarily to his brothers in Corinth.

Evidently this "sacred secret" failed. They all died. And more than 2000 years ahead, here we are. If we were to take Paul's words out of context and even try to apply it to our day, it would mean Paul and the thousands of christians are still in the grave waiting for Christ to arrive (Christ coping. I'm not using the bogus 1914 presence explanation here, because that's even more farcical).

Now to the second text to the Thessalonians, this is even more absurd. Verse 18, shows that he was comforting them with the hope. What Was The hope? An examination of the text shows that he said with certainty that "we" the living. Clearly he was quite sure that the resurrection would occur in his life time.

The failure of these spurious claims lead me to some real honest questions.

Are these text under inspiration too? If they are, why did they fail. If they are not, but mere wishful thinking, on what grounds then can we take other of Paul's writings as inspired?
Since these claims did not fulfill for those to whom it was intended as is evident when we read the context, on what ground then can Christians express confidence, faith and even adopt it as a doctrine for Christians today as something that is being fulfilled already (as in the dubious explanation of the Jws) or even as something still to come as believed by many other Christians?
Since his teachings on this matter failed, can we call Paul a False Prophet as we do the Jw Borg?

Has anyone thought of this before too? How were you able to get around this without making concession for Paul and not making one for the borg?

Waiting for your replies.

32

Need Help fleeing my country

by saorean in

jw
friends

don't be startled by the title of this thread.

heaven knows we need never be ashamed of our tears, for they are rain upon the blinding dust of earth, overlying our hard hearts.. in planning for my escape from the borg, i've come to the sad realization that the best thing for me to do considering factors like: breaking my parents and siblings hearts, lack of support groups, lack of counseling groups for cult survivors, and the prospect of finding a mate who shares my secular views on life, i've come to the realization that i need to leave my country and even my continent africa.

i know i sound desperate, but what can a brother do when all he can do is cry out for help or die in silence.

saorean

Simon: immigration fraud you say? That's a ridiculous thing to say considering the fact that you've read from page 1 to this point. I'm not one to banter over words with an ex-jw suffering from a judgemental self-righteous hang over.

Your opinion of me or my intentions is not my reality. A clean conscience fears no accusation, so Godspeed with that paranoia buddy.

Fulano: I don't know what you've been through, but it sure does come off as a bad experience. A person your age and with your experience should know better though, that you don't paint everyone with the same brush. Your comment sounds stereotypically racist.

I know you've had your trust broken by the organization, we all have. But don't allow that define you.

Many previous commenters have dropped very valuable information and links which I've already started reading up on.

All the same, I wish you both peace, the peace that your heart both direly requires.

32

Need Help fleeing my country

by saorean in

jw
friends

don't be startled by the title of this thread.

heaven knows we need never be ashamed of our tears, for they are rain upon the blinding dust of earth, overlying our hard hearts.. in planning for my escape from the borg, i've come to the sad realization that the best thing for me to do considering factors like: breaking my parents and siblings hearts, lack of support groups, lack of counseling groups for cult survivors, and the prospect of finding a mate who shares my secular views on life, i've come to the realization that i need to leave my country and even my continent africa.

i know i sound desperate, but what can a brother do when all he can do is cry out for help or die in silence.

saorean

Giordano thanks for taking the time to give a detailed reply.

32

Need Help fleeing my country

by saorean in

jw
friends

don't be startled by the title of this thread.

heaven knows we need never be ashamed of our tears, for they are rain upon the blinding dust of earth, overlying our hard hearts.. in planning for my escape from the borg, i've come to the sad realization that the best thing for me to do considering factors like: breaking my parents and siblings hearts, lack of support groups, lack of counseling groups for cult survivors, and the prospect of finding a mate who shares my secular views on life, i've come to the realization that i need to leave my country and even my continent africa.

i know i sound desperate, but what can a brother do when all he can do is cry out for help or die in silence.

saorean

Stan livedeath : thanks for the link. Checking it out...

LoveUniHateExams: thanks for the input. Appreciated!

32

Need Help fleeing my country

by saorean in

jw
friends

don't be startled by the title of this thread.

heaven knows we need never be ashamed of our tears, for they are rain upon the blinding dust of earth, overlying our hard hearts.. in planning for my escape from the borg, i've come to the sad realization that the best thing for me to do considering factors like: breaking my parents and siblings hearts, lack of support groups, lack of counseling groups for cult survivors, and the prospect of finding a mate who shares my secular views on life, i've come to the realization that i need to leave my country and even my continent africa.

i know i sound desperate, but what can a brother do when all he can do is cry out for help or die in silence.

saorean

@stan livedeath are there any particular websites you could recommend where I can check for skills needed and apply?

32

Need Help fleeing my country

by saorean in

jw
friends

don't be startled by the title of this thread.

heaven knows we need never be ashamed of our tears, for they are rain upon the blinding dust of earth, overlying our hard hearts.. in planning for my escape from the borg, i've come to the sad realization that the best thing for me to do considering factors like: breaking my parents and siblings hearts, lack of support groups, lack of counseling groups for cult survivors, and the prospect of finding a mate who shares my secular views on life, i've come to the realization that i need to leave my country and even my continent africa.

i know i sound desperate, but what can a brother do when all he can do is cry out for help or die in silence.

saorean

@LoveUniHateExams, first, can one be granted asylum on the grounds of religious persecution? Second, the bottle neck is that my plan is to leave and eventually leave the borg without my family knowing. So if I apply for asylum that would defeat the purpose.

As an economic migrant what do I need to do? I know it's easier to come on work visas. I know that I stand a better chance if someone helps me secure the job abroad. Then I can take care of the rest logistics from my end.

Information and practical help that's all I ask. I'm not asking for a dime from anyone. I'm restating for emphasis "I'm footing my own bills, I believe I have sufficient savings to cover this."

Thanks.

32

Need Help fleeing my country

by saorean in

jw
friends

don't be startled by the title of this thread.

heaven knows we need never be ashamed of our tears, for they are rain upon the blinding dust of earth, overlying our hard hearts.. in planning for my escape from the borg, i've come to the sad realization that the best thing for me to do considering factors like: breaking my parents and siblings hearts, lack of support groups, lack of counseling groups for cult survivors, and the prospect of finding a mate who shares my secular views on life, i've come to the realization that i need to leave my country and even my continent africa.

i know i sound desperate, but what can a brother do when all he can do is cry out for help or die in silence.

saorean

JimmyYoung and FadingAlbatross, I expected responses like yours, so I won't take it wrongly. Heck, even I would be apprehensive, so it's all love.

I'm not disturbed because I know my motives are pure. Thanks all the same.