Hey I talked to a Dub at the door today!

by FreeWilly 19 Replies latest jw friends

  • FreeWilly
    FreeWilly



    Paduan: `It is because of my righteousness that the LORD has brought me in to possess this land'; whereas it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out before you. ....it is a land like no other, and as said above, and below, it is not something that is earned.



    I understand the argument. However, the bottom line is the Canaanites simply followed a different religious belief and were unfortunate enough to live on property the Israelites wanted . There was never any attempt to reform their ways, or try in any way to show them 'righteousness'. It was entirely about Real Estate . Why? Because the entire earth held beliefs different from the Israelites, yet there was no campaign to 'clean' other areas. Why weren't others slaughtered by the Israelites? Simple, they weren't on the property, the Canaanites were. Their crime was that they were residents, as evidenced by the account of the Gibeonites. Desperate, they tricked the Israelites into thinking they weren't from the promised land, so that they would be spared. It worked. Had they told them they actual lived there, they would have been slaughtered. So despite their having different beliefs, their ploy to convince the Israelites that they weren't residents is what spared them.



    How f*#king cruel is that? This God makes a covenant with ONLY the Israelites, specifically excluding other nations (Ex 19:5). He then punishes all who do not follow what he taught only the Israelites.



    If this were righteous then I supposed he would have every reason to destroy the Chinese too since they had 'wicked' practices and following Pagan Gods.



    Any while it is true that those fortunate enough to gain acceptance by the Israelites (Rahab etc ) were allowed to blend in as proselytes, it's a stretch to say that there was this invitation extended to all nations. Phooey!






    Blonde: Great point about the virgins... I'll have to remember that one.

  • ithinkisee
    ithinkisee

    Regarding the "I'll have to research that and come back" you can say this:

    "Please do that. But if you don't come back I'll know you're religion is lying to me about God."

    That burns them up because they do NOT like to be called liars. So they'll likely come back.

    (That is ... if you want them to.)

    -ithinkisee

    PS: I got that idea from one of those Dr. Walter Martin MP3s

  • jaffacake
    jaffacake

    I would be nice and agree with a few things, then when they are off guard, go straight to the heart of the matter:

    Ask them to look up the 1973 Fred Franz book God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years has Approached which explains in detail the interpretation of the most quoted scripture, Matthew 24:45-47. Jesus returned in 1914, then in 1918 he began inspecting all religions and appointed the Watchtower over all his earthly interests in the Spring of 1919, because:

    "down to 1919" they proved themselves based on the quality of the food (pages 349,350)

    • they were serving the right sort of (spiritual) food
    • at the right time

    The other 2 tests are explained in the WT 14 June 2001, page 14 ie to have God's backing they must teach:

    • only what God reveals in his word
    • reject anything based on human reasoning.

    Then ask them to apply the 4 tests Jesus would have applied in 1919 to what they were teaching, not now, but down to 1919.

    What were they teaching about:

    • the second coming (or presence) of Christ
    • who was the faithful & discreet slave
    • Return of Prophets of old in 1925
    • Millions now living will never die
    • 38 dates/events that never came to pass
    • Christmas, birthdays, the cross
    • the Great Pyramid of Gizeh
    • End of time of trouble in 1914
    • 1200 furlongs of Revelation 14:20
    • etc etc etc
  • SwordOfJah
    SwordOfJah

    Here is the JW view on the topic form the Insight on the Scriptures books:

    Why did Jehovah decree the extermination of the Canaanites?

    The historical account shows that the populations of the Canaanite cities conquered by the Israelites were subjected to complete destruction. (Nu 21:1-3, 34, 35; Jos 6:20, 21; 8:21-27; 10:26-40; 11:10-14) This fact has been used by some critics as a means for depicting the Hebrew Scriptures, or "Old Testament," as imbued with a spirit of cruelty and wanton slaughter. The issue involved, however, is clearly that of whether God’s sovereignty over the earth and its inhabitants is acknowledged or not. He had deeded over the right of tenure of the land of Canaan to the ‘seed of Abraham,’ doing so by an oath-bound covenant. (Ge 12:5-7; 15:17-21; compare De 32:8; Ac 17:26.) But more than a mere eviction or dispossessing of the existing tenants of that land was purposed by God. His right to act as "Judge of all the earth" (Ge 18:25) and to decree the sentence of capital punishment upon those found meriting it, as well as his right to implement and enforce the execution of such decree, was also involved.

    The justness of God’s prophetic curse on Canaan found full confirmation in the conditions that had developed in Canaan by the time of the Israelite conquest. Jehovah had allowed 400 years from Abraham’s time for the ‘error of the Amorites to come to completion.’ (Ge 15:16) The fact that Esau’s Hittite wives were "a source of bitterness of spirit to Isaac and Rebekah" to the extent that Rebekah had ‘come to abhor her life because of them’ is certainly an indication of the badness already manifest among the Canaanites. (Ge 26:34, 35; 27:46) During the centuries that followed, the land of Canaan became saturated with detestable practices of idolatry, immorality, and bloodshed. The Canaanite religion was extraordinarily base and degraded, their "sacred poles" evidently being phallic symbols, and many of the rites at their "high places" involving gross sexual excesses and depravity. (Ex 23:24; 34:12, 13; Nu 33:52; De 7:5) Incest, sodomy, and bestiality were part of ‘the way of the land of Canaan’ that made the land unclean and for which error it was due to "vomit its inhabitants out." (Le 18:2-25) Magic, spellbinding, spiritism, and sacrifice of their children by fire were also among the Canaanites’ detestable practices.—De 18:9-12.

    Baal was the most prominent of the deities worshiped by the Canaanites. (Jg 2:12, 13; compare Jg 6:25-32; 1Ki 16:30-32.) The Canaanite goddesses Ashtoreth (Jg 2:13; 10:6; 1Sa 7:3, 4), Asherah, and Anath are presented in an Egyptian text as both mother-goddesses and as sacred prostitutes who, paradoxically, remain ever-virgin (literally, "the great goddesses who conceive but do not bear"). Their worship apparently was invariably involved with the services of temple prostitutes. These goddesses symbolized the quality not only of sexual lust but also of sadistic violence and warfare. Thus, the goddess Anath is depicted in the Baal Epic from Ugarit as effecting a general slaughter of men and then decorating herself with suspended heads and attaching men’s hands to her girdle while she joyfully wades in their blood. The figurines of the goddess Ashtoreth that have been discovered in Palestine are of a nude woman with rudely exaggerated sex organs. Of their phallic worship, archaeologist W. F. Albright observes that: "At its worst, . . . the erotic aspect of their cult must have sunk to extremely sordid depths of social degradation."—Archaeology and the Religion of Israel, 1968, pp. 76, 77; see ASHTORETH; BAAL No. 4.

    Added to their other degrading practices was that of child sacrifice. According to Merrill F. Unger: "Excavations in Palestine have uncovered piles of ashes and remains of infant skeletons in cemeteries around heathen altars, pointing to the widespread practice of this cruel abomination." (Archaeology and the Old Testament, 1964, p. 279) Halley’s Bible Handbook (1964, p. 161) says: "Canaanites worshipped, by immoral indulgence, as a religious rite, in the presence of their gods; and then, by murdering their first-born children, as a sacrifice to these same gods. It seems that, in large measure, the land of Canaan had become a sort of Sodom and Gomorrah on a national scale. . . . Did a civilization of such abominable filth and brutality have any right longer to exist? . . . Archaeologists who dig in the ruins of Canaanite cities wonder that God did not destroy them sooner than he did."—PICTURE, Vol. 1, p. 739.

    Jehovah had exercised his sovereign right to execute the sentence of death upon the wicked population of the entire planet at the time of the global Flood; he had done so with regard to the entire District of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of ‘the loud cry of complaint about them and their very heavy sin’ (Ge 18:20; 19:13); he had executed a decree of destruction upon Pharaoh’s military forces at the Red Sea; he had also exterminated the households of Korah and other rebels among the Israelites themselves. However, in these cases, God had employed natural forces to accomplish the destruction. By contrast, Jehovah now assigned to the Israelites the sacred duty of serving as principal executioners of his divine decree, guided by his angelic messenger and backed by God’s almighty power. (Ex 23:20-23, 27, 28; De 9:3, 4; 20:15-18; Jos 10:42) The results, nevertheless, were precisely the same to the Canaanites as if God had chosen to destroy them by some phenomenon such as a flood, fiery explosion, or earthquake, and the fact that human agents effected the putting to death of the condemned peoples, however unpleasant their task may seem, cannot alter the rightness of the divinely ordained action. (Jer 48:10) By using this human instrument, pitted against "seven nations more populous and mighty" than they were, Jehovah’s power was magnified and his Godship proved.—De 7:1; Le 25:38.

    The Canaanites were not ignorant of the powerful evidence that Israel was God’s chosen people and instrument. (Jos 2:9-21, 24; 9:24-27) However, with the exception of Rahab and her family and the cities of the Gibeonites, those who came in for destruction neither sought mercy nor availed themselves of the opportunity to flee, but instead they chose to harden themselves in rebellion against Jehovah. He did not force them to bend and give in to his expressed will but, rather, "let their hearts become stubborn so as to declare war against Israel, in order that he might devote them to destruction, that they might come to have no favorable consideration, but in order that he might annihilate them" in execution of his judgment against them.—Jos 11:19, 20.

    Joshua wisely "did not remove a word from all that Jehovah had commanded Moses" as to the destruction of the Canaanites. (Jos 11:15) But the Israelite nation failed to follow up his good lead and completely eliminate the source of pollution of the land. The continued presence of the Canaanites among them brought infection into Israel that, in the course of time, undoubtedly contributed toward more deaths (not to mention crime, immorality, and idolatry) than the decreed extermination of all the Canaanites would have produced had it been faithfully effected. (Nu 33:55, 56; Jg 2:1-3, 11-23; Ps 106:34-43) Jehovah had warned the Israelites that his justice and his judgments would not be partial and that for the Israelites to enter into relations with the Canaanites, intermarry with them, practice interfaith, and adopt their religious customs and degenerate practices would mean their inevitably bringing down upon themselves the same decree of annihilation and would result in their also being ‘vomited out of the land.’—Ex 23:32, 33; 34:12-17; Le 18:26-30; De 7:2-5, 25, 26.

    Judges 3:1, 2 states that Jehovah let some of the Canaanite nations stay "so as by them to test Israel, that is, all those who had not experienced any of the wars of Canaan; it was only in order for the generations of the sons of Israel to have the experience, so as to teach them war, that is, only those who before that had not experienced such things." This does not contradict the earlier statement (Jg 2:20-22) that Jehovah allowed these nations to remain because of Israel’s unfaithfulness and in order to "test Israel, whether they will be keepers of Jehovah’s way." Rather, it harmonizes with that reason and shows that later generations of Israelites would thereby be faced with the opportunity to demonstrate obedience to God’s commands concerning the Canaanites, putting their faith to the test to the point of endangering their lives in war in order to prove obedient.

    In view of all of this, it is clear that the opinion held by some Bible critics that the destruction of the Canaanites by Israel is not in harmony with the spirit of the Christian Greek Scriptures does not accord with the facts, as a comparison of such texts as Matthew 3:7-12; 22:1-7; 23:33; 25:41-46; Mark 12:1-9; Luke 19:14, 27; Romans 1:18-32; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; 2:3; and Revelation 19:11-21 will demonstrate.

  • undercover
    undercover
    He(Jehovah) had deeded over the right of tenure of the land of Canaan to the ‘seed of Abraham,’ doing so by an oath-bound covenant.

    Yea, but until you record it downtown it's not legally binding. Can we see a copy of this so-called deed?

  • jaffacake
    jaffacake
    "Please do that. But if you don't come back I'll know you're religion is lying to me about God."

    Thanks for this tip, I will use it in the right circumstances.

  • jaffacake
    jaffacake

    Sword of Jah

    Thanks for the detail, its just a shame that so much emphasis remains on the Old Testament, the main reason I find it hard to categorise JWs as Christian, at least since the swith from New to Old Testament emphasis under Rutherford.

    Perhaps you could kindly address my clumsy questions in my post above. Do you still believe in the FDS appointment in 1919 based on the spiritual food 1876-1919? My current favourite (having just returned from Egypt) is the 67 pages in The Finished Mystery proving that the Great Pyramid was a stone prophet and Bible, which helped prove all the dates including 1914. Faithful?? Discreet?? Any feedback most welcome please.

  • Preston
    Preston
    She asked why and I told her I felt that God's instruction to attack the Caananites was due to a promis he made to Abraham over Real estate. What did the Caananites do to them? She explained that when people do not follow god and worship Pagan Gods, Jah punishes them. I replied, but that's not why the Bible says they should be killed. The Caananites were attacked because of a promise (unbeknown to them), not because they disobeyed.

    How much was he paying into escrow?

    - Preston

  • Buster
    Buster

    (Because I am bored at work today.)

    SwordOfJah replied with an excerpt from the Insight book:

    In view of all of this, it is clear that the opinion held by some Bible critics that the destruction of the Canaanites by Israel is not in harmony with the spirit of the Christian Greek Scriptures does not accord with the facts, as a comparison of such texts as Matthew 3:7-12; 22:1-7; 23:33; 25:41-46; Mark 12:1-9; Luke 19:14, 27; Romans 1:18-32; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; 2:3; and Revelation 19:11-21 will demonstrate.

    So, FreeWilly,

    Tell you what, bring this up yourself. You see, I looked up all those scriptures they cited at the bottom. They throw that slew-o-scripture hoping no one will look any further. Guess what, those passle-o-passages do NOT support and accord between the Greek and the Hebrew texts.

    It is amazing how often those long rosters-o-references have no scripture that supports the point at hand. Often, it contains scriptures that teach the exact opposite of what they are trying to convey.

    Not one of those citations supports, or somehow accords with, any wholesale slaughter of whole peoples. It does not support the slaughter if it were for trespassing on promised territory. It does not support genocide for false religion.

    They ALL are references to retribution for actions taken by the individuals - not the innocent, children or others.

    Allow me:

    Matt 3: - is a call to repentence and baptism

    Matt 22: is a retribution to the killers for killing servants (parable)

    Matt 23: is Jesus calling out the Pharisees and Saducees as he knew they were planning to kill him

    Matt 25: is retribution for failure to help the 'least of his followers'

    Mark: is a parable for treatment after killing son

    Luke: is retribution for refusing a king's reign (parable)

    Romans: cites worthiness of death for committed actions

    2Thes 1: is about recompense to persecutors\

    Revelation: is too damn symbolic to apply here

  • FreeWilly
    FreeWilly

    Thanks for the research buster,

    I think many Dubs just assume that all those scriptures must mean its true, and never bother to research it.

    Sword of Jah, good job posting their info. Isn't it amazing how sanitized the Society makes genocide sound ?

    The issue involved, however, is clearly that of whether God’s sovereignty over the earth and its inhabitants is acknowledged or not.

    Really? Exactly where in the Bible does it say this issue was before the Caananites, and one that they apparently rejected? They were never approached with any issues that Jah wanted them to resolve. They simply existed, that was their crime. And you can hardly blame people for have different beliefs when you specifically exclude them from you own.

    Oh, and I love this:

    He had deeded over the right of tenure of the land of Canaan to the ‘seed of Abraham,’ doing so by an oath-bound covenant. (Ge 12:5-7; 15:17-21; compare De 32:8; Ac 17:26.) But more than a mere eviction or dispossessing of the existing tenants of that land was purposed by God. His right to act as "Judge of all the earth" (Ge 18:25) and to decree the sentence of capital punishment upon those found meriting it, as well as his right to implement and enforce the execution of such decree, was also involved.

    I bet the Nazi's put similar spin on their solution to "the Jewish question". What a creepy use of language to justify the atrocity.

    I hope they bring this book out!

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