W.T. quotes about "visible" and "invisible presence" of Jesus 2nd coming?

by hubert 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  blondie

  Yes, I think I brought those points out above.

  I would like to find where the Watchtower said in their books that Jesus was coming "visibly" to inspect all religions in 1918-1919.

  From the time of Russell's first publication The Object and Manner of the Lord's Return, he was promoting an invisible presence. That is what drew him to Barbour in the first place. With his break from Barbour and the subsequent publication of the WT under Russell's direction, I don't find any promotion of a visible return of Christ even to inspect. He does talk about the Millerite disappointment and was influenced by several prominent Second Adventists. But I have never found anything in his publications after the 1877 publication that promotes a visible return of Christ.

  If anyone has a quote, and the publication and page it is from, I'd be interested.
• 

  Leolaia

  Well, there was also 1881 which was expected to be the visible rapture of the elect and just a few months later was recast as the date when the door to the calling to be of the elect closes (an "invisible" event), later moved to 1918 and then to 1935.
• 

  hamsterbait

  They seem to be paving he way for a visible coming at Armageddon in the new Great Teacher book, where Jesus is in the sky on a horse, along with angels.

  I doubt that young kids will see that as mere metaphor.

  HB
• 

  blondie

  Leoilia, you wouldn't happen to have which book (and page) that was stated in?
• 

  Leolaia

  In looking at the statements again, I should add that Russell did also refer to the door to the higher calling ending in 1881 before he changed his view, but it was part of the overall event of translation into spiritual bodies, the resurrection of the dead, and the "taking" of the saints:

  "We believe that the seven years ("harvest") from the autumn of 1874 to 1881, is the time for the construction of this temple, i.e., the bringing of all the members--fruit-bearing branches of the Vine--into the perfect spiritual condition. And the living stones for this temple selected and prepared during this gospel age, were nearly all ready before the construction commenced (1874), and must all be ready before the temple is completed, and it must be completed before "the glory of the Lord" fills it. ... If we are correct in this matter, it proves, in harmony with the parallelism of the Jewish and Gospel ages, not only that the door of favor to the "high calling" --to be the bride--the temple, will end in the autumn of 1881, but it also proves, as that parallelism does, the presence of Christ. The first proves his presence as the reaper in this harvest, gathering dead and living "into his barn," away from the tares, &c., and this last proves his presence as the constructor of the temple, typified by Solomon.... Our change from natural to spiritual bodies we at one time supposed to be the marriage, but we now see that the change precedes, as making us ready for the marriage. We still believe that the change is our full deliverance from fleshly conditions and frailties into the perfections of our new being, from weakness to power; from corruption to incorruption; from dishonor to glory; from a natural to a spiritual body; from the image of the earthly to the image of the heavenly (1 Cor. 15:42-48); "made like unto Christ's glorious body." But we are thus changed to His glorious likeness in order that our installment in official power with Him may follow (symbolically called marriage)" (ZWT, December 1880, p. 8).

  "In the article concerning our change, in December paper, we expressed the opinion that it was nearer than many supposed, and while we would not attempt to prove our change at any particular time, yet we propose looking at some of the evidences which seem to show the translation or change from the natural to the spiritual condition, due this side or by the fall of our year 1881. The evidence that our change will be by that time, increases since we have seen that the change to spiritual bodies is not the marriage..... We shall now present what we adduce from the types and prophetic points as seeming to indicate the translation of the saints and closing of the door to the high calling by 1881. .... From 1881 to 1914 inclusive, is only about thirty-three years, hence in this respect the time differs. This is not when considered an objection to the position, for though the time of harvest and end of this age commenced Chronologically in 1874, yet the trouble cannot break, in the full sense, until the saints have been taken. .... Just as 1881 is three and a-half years from the point when the Jews began to receive favor. While this trouble is due, in the actual sense, from 1881 on, and is due chronologically to end in 1914, leaving only a space of thirty-three years; yet the trouble cannot end actually at that time, for there would be a gradual decrease "while the nations were beating their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks." (Isa. 2:4) Hence there could be forty years of trouble even after 1881 and not interfere with our general position, for this would only carry us seven years beyond 1914, as this now does seven years beyond 1874. We used to think it would be in the midst of a great trouble that we would be changed, but now we do not. Noah went in before it rained, and "the Lord shut him in." (Gen. 7:16) So now, while all things remain as in "the days of Noah," we will be changed and then the flood--trouble will break on those who know not and are in darkness. [1 Thess. 5:1-5] ..... We now have taken prophetic measurements and allegories together, five different points seeming to teach the resurrection of the dead in Christ and change of the living between the fall of 1874 and 1881. Two or more witnesses are enough to prove any case, as a rule, and certainly God has given us abundant evidence. We are also glad to notice that all these things only corroborate previous truths, thus proving to a certainty each application as correct and causing the old jewels to shine brighter" (ZWT, January 1881, pp. 4-5).

  Then a few months later he backtracked in classic Watchtower fashion to claim that he never said what he had just said and that it was the "Second Advent Church" that had entertained such thoughts (note that Russell pretends as if the expectation were the advent itself, which occurred in 1874, and not the translation of the saints per se):

  " 'The Second Advent Church' people, and many in other denominations, interested in the Lord's coming and expecting him in the flesh, have turned their attention to 1881, and feel confident that they will see Jesus with their natural eyes this year. Their hopes are based partly upon an old rhyme called "Mother Shipton's prophecy," which concludes thus: "The world unto an end will come, In eighteen hundred and eighty-one." and partly upon the teachings of "The Great Pyramid" of Egypt, whose "Grand gallery" measures 1881 pyramid inches. This "Grand gallery" is supposed to symbolize the gospel dispensation, and its 1881 inches are supposed to teach that the gospel dispensation will be 1881 years long, and a further reason for belief in 1881, is that so many other people are expecting something. (Not a prophetic period, can be claimed, as they are all past.) Now to us, these things seem a poor and weak foundation for the hopes built upon them. Our belief that the Lord is present, is based on the "more sure word of prophecy" to which Peter said, we would do well to take heed. The interest felt and expressed relative to this year by most of those interested in the Lord's coming, and the fact that we expect SOMETHING, has perhaps led some people, who do not understand our position, to suppose that we are looking for much the same things as others. We would like to correct this misapprehension once for all, by stating that we do not expect Jesus to come this year, nor any other year, for we believe that all time prophecies (bearing upon Jesus' coming) ended at and before the fall of 1874, and that He came there, and the second advent is now in progress and will continue during the entire Millennial age. We believe that his presence will be revealed to the eyes of men's understandings gradually, during this "Day of the Lord," (forty years--from 1874 to 1914,) as it now is to ours; except that we, discern it through the word of prophecy revealed by the Spirit, and they will recognize his presence by His judgments upon Nominal Zion, and the World--for the Father "hath committed all judgment unto the Son." The WATCH TOWER never claimed that the body of Christ will be changed to spiritual beings during this year. There is such a change due sometime. We have not attempted to say when, but have repeatedly said that it could not take place before the fall of 1881.... We have no desire to dogmatize nor to keep any one out, but we believe (and therefore speak) that the favor which ends this fall, is that of entering the Bride company. We believe the door of favor is now open and any who consecrate all and give up all, can come in to the wedding and become members of the Bride, but that with this year the company will be reckoned complete and the door to that high calling (not the door of mercy) closed forever.... Now, it was on the strength of this prophetic "shadow" which shows that the "door" would not close until this fall, that we said, the living would not be changed before that time. As to when our change is due we can only say: To our understanding it will be due at any time after October 2nd, 1881, but we know of no scriptural evidence as to what time we will be changed from natural to spiritual, from mortal to immortal" (ZWT, May 1881, pp. 4-5).

  Note here that the change of the saints would occur any time AFTER 1881. The prior articles claimed that the change would happen between 1874 and 1881 and the time of trouble (between 1881-1914) could not begin until all the saints have been taken, just as Noah and his family were all inside the ark before it rained.
• 

  blondie

  'The Second Advent Church' people, and many in other denominations, interested in the Lord's coming and expecting him in the flesh, have turned their attention to 1881, and feel confident that they will see Jesus with their natural eyes this year

  I just read this reference yesterday and I think Russell was referring to the Second Adventists and other denominations feeling they would see Jesus with their natural eyes.

  I don't see where that said Russell or the Bible Students as a group thought they would see Jesus visibly.

  I have seen some difficulties in WT statements past and more present explaining how the remnant on earth will become spirit when the end comes and it is time to join Christ. The others died physical deaths either by old age, illness, accident, etc. Bu they see a cutoff time for the marriage of the Bride which is supposed to take place in heaven shortly after the destruction of Babylon the Great with all of them being spirits. That implies that some will have to die an intimely death. They still battle over whether there will be some anointed on earth when the paradise is underway but how will they attend their wedding with Christ.

  Blondie
• 

  Leolaia

  Russell was referring only to the "Second Adventists" (the group he had just broken from) because he wanted to deny that his own group was teaching the same thing. "The WATCH TOWER never claimed that the body of Christ will be changed to spiritual beings during the year". Yet this is exactly what the earlier articles said. They declared that the translation or change occurs between 1874 and 1881, so that it ends in 1881. They said that the change is "due this side or by the fall of our year 1881" and "the translation of the saints [is] by 1881". They said that time of trouble is due to break in 1881 and will culminate in 1914, and the trouble cannot break until the saints are taken. The later article stated almost the opposite of this: "We have not attempted to say when [the change is due], but have repeatedly said that it could not take place before the fall of 1881".
• 

  somebody

  Ditchy Elle,

  Thank you for the reference! Here is somethign a little more recent also, that goes along with what you provided.

  ***

  w89 4/1 pp. 11-12 Hear What the Spirit Says to the Congregations ***

  )"After 96 C.E., Jesus did not ‘come’ in any significant way until he was enthroned as King in 1914. (Acts 1:9-11) Then, in fulfillment of Malachi 3:1, he ‘came’ again in 1918, when he came to Jehovah’s temple to judge first the household of God. (1 Peter 4:17) He will ‘come’ once more, in the near future, when he "brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus."—2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8; Matthew 24:42-44.

  And here is what the WTS says Parousia means:

  ***

  Multiple Articles ***

  11

  Pointedly, pa·rou·si´a means "presence." Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says: "PAROUSIA, . . . lit[erally], a presence, para, with, and ousia, being (from eimi, to be), denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with. For instance, in a papyrus letter a lady speaks of the necessity of her parousia in a place in order to attend to matters relating to her property." Other lexicons explain that pa·rou·si´a denotes ‘the visit of a ruler.’ Hence, it is not just the moment of arrival, but a presence extending from the arrival onward. Interestingly, that is how Jewish historian Josephus, a contemporary of the apostles, used pa·rou·si´a.

  12

  The meaning "presence" is clearly borne out by ancient literature, yet Christians are particularly interested in how God’s Word uses pa·rou·si´a. The answer is the same—presence. We see that from examples in Paul’s letters. For instance, he wrote to the Philippians: "In the way that you have always obeyed, not during my presence only, but now much more readily during my absence, keep working out your own salvation." He also spoke of abiding with them that they might exult "through [his] presence [pa·rou·si´a] again with [them]." (Philippians 1:25, 26; 2:12) Other versions read "my being with you again" (Weymouth; New International Version); "when I am with you again" (Jerusalem Bible; New English Bible); and "when you once more have me among you." (Twentieth Century New Testament) At 2 Corinthians 10:10, 11, Paul contrasted "his presence in person" with being "absent." In these examples he plainly was not speaking of his approach or arrival; he used pa·rou·si´a in the sense of being present. (Compare 1 Corinthians 16:17.) What, though, about references to Jesus’ pa·rou·si´a? Are they with the sense of his "coming," or do they indicate an extended presence?

  13

  Spirit-anointed Christians in Paul’s day were interested in Jesus’ pa·rou·si´a. But Paul warned them not to be ‘shaken from their reason.’ First there must appear "the man of lawlessness," which has proved to be the clergy of Christendom. Paul wrote that "the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs." (2 Thessalonians 2:2, 3, 9) Plainly, the pa·rou·si´a, or presence, of "the man of lawlessness" was not just a momentary arrival; it would extend over time, during which lying signs would be produced. Why is this significant?"

  I have to leave for work, but will continue perhaops tonight.

  peace to you all,

  gwen
• 

  NeonMadman

  In his later works and in Rutherford's I have never found anything that changed this idea and I have read most of them recently in the last six months.

  Dang, blondie, I am in awe of your tolerance for mindless drivel!
• 

  blondie

  Neon, I just consider it research into the history of the WTS. I'm sure James Penton had to read these with some diligence, Ed Gruss and others.

  I don't find it a waste of time.

  George Santanya, "Those who cannot remember the
  past are condemned to repeat it."

  Blondie