Like many others, I recently rediscovered Allymom's 2003 posting:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx
I have just added this information to the WT Quotes website:
http://quotes.watchtower.ca/607bce.htm
Although I have not added anything to Allymom's research, I hope that by posting it at WT Quotes it is more accessible (i.e. less apostate?) than JWD to the average JW.
Be warned: as AlanF pointed out in the original thread, WT inconsistently claims there were missing kings and/or years to account for the missing 20 years. However, the WT material presented in the thread leaves no room for this nonsense; they make a strong case for the accuracy of the regnal dates and the succession of kings, and leave no room for adjustment (even by themselves). Then, right at the end of the research, the 18th regnal year of Nebuchadnezzar magically moves to 607 BCE instead of 587 BCE. Any missing kings or dates would have to disagree with WT's own authoritatively stated words in the above quotes. ("A house divided can not stand")
Allymom's K.I.S.S. 607 vs. 587: now available at WT Quotes website
by Quotes 20 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Quotes
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kls
Thanks Quotes, i don't remember seeing this post and glad you have it on you're site .
This is a keeper to be sure.
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Leolaia
Sweet!
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kwintestal
Nice!
Kwin
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Dansk
Alleymom's post certainly deserves a wider readership. Well done, Quotes!!
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nicolaou
Agree with all of the above. Have posted it at www.theWatchtower.org as well.
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robhic
Can Alleymom now be elevated to rockstar-like status? Can she be worshipped or just her kick-ass timeline research product? I think it needs addressing...
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Carmel
I spent nearly two hours last night reading ally's KISS and find it to be one of the seminal chinks in the JW armor. Too bad JC Cannon couldn't understand the simple, straightforward argument and its logical premise. She certainly provided a service to those who are still dealing with the UUs.
Hats off to amom!
carmel
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M.J.
Great quotes!
The most telling is that these quotes show an uninterrupted succession between Nebuchadnezzar, Evil-merodach, Neriglissar, Labashi-Marduk, and Nabonidus.
*** Insight Vol.2 p.457 Nabonidus ***
NABONIDUS
(Nab·o·ni'dus) [from Babylonian meaning "Nebo [a Babylonian god] Is Exalted"].
Last supreme monarch of the Babylonian Empire; father of Belshazzar. On the basis of cuneiform texts he is believed to have ruled some 17 years (556-539 B.C.E.). He was given to literature, art, and religion.The start of Nabonidus's reign was 556 BCE.
*** Watchtower 1965 January 1 p.29 The Rejoicing of the Wicked Is Short-lived ***
Evil-merodach reigned two years and was murdered by his brother-in-law Neriglissar, who reigned for four years, which time he spent mainly in building operations. His underage son Labashi-Marduk, a vicious boy, succeeded him, and was assassinated within nine months. Nabonidus, who had served as governor of Babylon and who had been Nebuchadnezzar's favorite son-in-law, took the throne and had a fairly glorious reign until Babylon fell in 539 B.C.E.There is a total of 6 yrs, 9 mo. between the start of Evil-merodach's reign and the start of Nabonidus' reign. So start of Evil-merodach's reign =
556 BCE + 6 = 562 BCE*** Insight Volume 1 pp.238-239 Babylon ***
One cuneiform tablet has been found referring to a campaign against Egypt in Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year (588 B.C.E.). This may be the occasion when mighty Egypt was brought under Babylonian control, as foretold by the prophet Ezekiel evidently in the year 591 B.C.E. (Eze 29:17-19) Finally, after a 43-year reign, which included both conquest of many nations and a grand building program in Babylonia itself, Nebuchadnezzar II died in October of 582 B.C.E. and was succeeded by Awil-Marduk (Evil-merodach).And according to this article, the start of Evil-merodach's reign came at the end of Nebuchadnezzar's 43-year reign. So Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year would have come 25 years before the start of Evil Merodach's reign,
562 BCE + 25 = 587 BCE -
Alleymom
Hi, Quotes ---
Ian emailed me and gave me the link to this thread.
I'm delighted that you found the K.I.S.S. approach to be an effective way of presenting the information about the internal inconsistency in the WTBTS's system of chronology.
(And I broke up laughing when I read Robhic's remark about my having achieved rock-star status!)
May I add some comments?
As most of you know, I was never one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I've mentioned before that I have an undergraduate degree (B.A.) in religion.
Actually, I double-majored in religion and math, but I graduated with the B.A. degree in religion while I was still one course shy of the B.S. in math.
The reason I bring up my math background now is that it is because of my experience in math tutoring, particularly in tutoring adults, that I know there are many adults who have an absolute phobia about numbers and mathematics, especially when it comes to word problems.
They just freeze up.
I've read an excellent book, which discusses the research done into which areas of the brain are involved in various types of mathematics.
It's called The Number Sense: How the Mind Creates Mathematics, by Stanislas Dehaene, who is described on the back cover as a "mathematician turned cognitive neuropsychologist."
There are different neuronic pathways involved in counting and in processing verbal ("verbal" in the sense of words, not in the sense of "oral") information about numbers.
This is an over-simplification, but it explains, in part, why counting is easier than solving word problems.
I believe very strongly that if you are going to try to explain the internal inconsistency in the Watchtower Society's system of chronology to an average adult --- especially to someone who has never had any advanced math --- you have to strive to remove every possible obstacle to comprehension. There are pedagogical methods, which can be used to help overcome the psychological and cognitive obstacles to comprehension.
Above all, you have to avoid making the presentation sound like a word problem!
If it sounds like a word problem, many adults will just freeze up or quit.
You have to emphasize that this is just simple counting, counting backwards, which anyone can do.
I think it's GREAT that you've put the information on your site. But I hope you won't mind if I say that I have some concern about how you've presented it. From my experience in working with math-challenged adults, I believe you've unwittingly created potential impediments to comprehension.
Surprisingly, it turns out to be the case that seemingly small changes in how a math problem is presented can have huge ramifications for how easily the problem is understood.
You want to "K.I.S.S." --- keep it simple, sweetie --- and just have the person view this as an exercise in COUNTING.
By interrupting the "countdown" and interspersing it with the paragraphs giving the information about each king, you've suddenly turned the whole thing into a giant word problem.
I am afraid some people are going to take one look as they scroll through the material, and react with "AAAACK, it looks like a word problem, it's too hard, I can't understand this chronology stuff."
I think you'd find that a few very minor changes would really help to make the material on your site easier to understand.
#1 Work on the wording of your first paragraph sentence:
Working backwards in time through the Babylonian kings, from the fall of Babylon to the Persians (539 BCE) back to the fall of Jerusalem to Babylonians
I suspect that you're going to have a lot of people reading the site who are mixed up about Babylon, the Persians, Jerusalem, etc.
When they see the words "Working backwards in time ... FROM ... TO" they're going to misunderstand you.
They're going to think this is about working backwards in time FROM the fall of Babylon TO the Persians. And then BACK to the fall of Jerusalem and then ... who knows, they're really mixed up now ... maybe back again TO the Babylonians.
That doesn't make ANY sense historically, of course, but THEY won't know that.
I think it's essential to word that first sentence so clearly that it cannot be misunderstood.
#2 This is the important one! Find a way to present the "quotes" material without interrupting the countdown. Once you stop the countdown, it's hard to pick it up again, ESPECIALLY because the stopping points resume with the next king's year 0, the accession year. This alone is enough to lose most people! "Hunh? Year 0? Accession year?"
Plus, people who are suspicious of the whole thing are going to wonder if you're fudging the numbers somehow when you interrupt with the paragraphs of Watch Tower literature. They may think it's all blah, blah, blah.
When I wrote the first message in the K.I.S.S. thread I had no idea this was going to become something so many people would read. So I didn't devote as much time to formatting the list of numbers as I could have. I remember trying to fix up that first message and I got the highlighting stuck!
You, on the other hand, have really put some time into the formatting. I especially like how you've made the tables --- they look great!
But you really might want to consider moving those wordy WT paragraphs which interrupt the countdown. I'm not sure exactly what to suggest. Perhaps a third column in the tables, with a SHORT explanation would be the answer, followed by the WT quotes at the end?
Kind regards,
Marjorie Alley (aka "alleymom")