Ad hominem

by philo 11 Replies latest jw friends

  • philo
    philo

    Why do we sometimes attack people rather than ideas?

    We lack the mental reach to chase an argument further, or we just can't be bothered to, the issue clouds over, we begin to realise the limits of our capacity, and all we CAN see clearly is the person who brought us to this unpleasant place: so we lash out at them, our 'opponent'.

    Ideas are difficult and people seem easy. The truth is that people are much more difficult, and when we attack them, it is not usually with understanding, rarely does it advance the debate. Why not? To reiterate, I think this is because we attack out of a sense of our own inadequacy. And we attack whatever seems weak, or odd about our opponent, be it intelligence, gender, age, status…

    So is it helpful to attack people for nobler reasons? Yes, I think it can be. People have ideas and beliefs, but they also ARE them, and perhaps they need shaking up to release them. I'm not talking about seeking to offend although this will sometimes happen accidentally even with the best of intentions.

    Personal attacks for reasons of social status I find the least excusable, and there is some of it here on the board. Even lower feeders like me have done it. I can't explain why I dislike it so much. I could argue in favour of it far more easily -- but I just don't like it.

    Having said all this, I think this board is a great place of ideas, a real community. Also I feel the board's format keeps flame wars under control by packaging up the threads. This contrasts with old H2O where you had to scroll past pages of names trading insults to get to other places in the community.

    Debate, here at JWD is in good shape. That's my 2 pfennigs. Much of the complaining about it is doom mongering (something we are all intimately aware of) and over dramatising. But where's the harm in that?

    philo

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Philo: Excellent post. 'Ad hominem' arguments are the most common form used by the average person. There is a major important reason for it. I deal with it everyday in my business. Judges in courts and trail lawyers have to deal with it, and caution witnesses about it all the time.

    The root of Ad Hominem arguments is heavy emotional investment. When we choose to adopt a religion, a political view, a philosophy, or a host of other things, we make the decision at the emotional levels in our minds. No one is exempt. The degree we use emotions over logic will often determine the level of Ad Hominem we draw upon to save our position.

    The JWs are no exception, and will look to save their ideology in any way possible, including 'ad hominem' arguments. When that fails, they shut out the world by use of shunning. I will make a post later on about how to get around these emotins and steer clear of 'ad hominem' responses. Maybe this will be helpful to some. Thanks again for an excellent post. - Amazing

  • hippikon
  • Maximus
    Maximus

    Right on, philo. I don't want to add more words, words, words.

    Someone for whom I have great respect came in the other day, and looked around on the board; he's done so before.

    His very astute observation was that he saw all too many dazed refugees walking into a camp with hastily fashioned crutches kicked from under them. His conclusion: "I find this behavior close to cruel and unworthy."

    He's absolutely right.

    Please. No dissertations on why it happens, how healthy freedom is, the value of ad hominem, how okay it is to sneer, to deride--to give folks in spades what they've received from the Society for years.

    Never mind changing tactics or learning to debate: lotta folks just need to grow up.

    Maximus

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Maximus: Yes, many do need to grow up. But, an equal number need to understand, show compassion, and realize that those who 'need to grow up' need space, time, and a place where they can make errors, and work through their JW experience. It takes many months and sometimes a year or two. And I find that those who visit such forums and make these judgments, as did your friend, without understanding human dynamics, are either very ignorant, or very callous, or assholes.

    Come on! People need a break ... they were beat down enough as JWs, why keep telling them to grow up and start trying give structure and controlling them. So, they use some 'ad homenim' arguments. Yes, that is an error, but for God's Sake! man, after 10, 20, or 30+ years as JWs, what else can we expect? The WTS publications are 'Ad Homenim' par excellence! It takes years to break from that style and move toward other ways of dealing with debates and issues in life.

    Amazing

  • Maximus
    Maximus

    Amazing, your response suggests you are taking my remarks as being to you personally as to comments you wrote. Please don't read anything in to my post, I simply had an opportunity to say something just like everyone else. I thought philo's points were well made and I wanted to associate myself with them.

    :: And I find that those who visit such forums and make these judgments, as did your friend, without understanding human dynamics, are either very ignorant, or very callous, or assholes.

    That's quite a leap, to assume a simple personal observation is made without understanding of human dynamics. I'm seeing many posts all over the board from folks who are reeling, who are calling for a better way.

    I submit to you that to make a sweeping assertion that they are all ignorant, or very callous, or assholes, is in itself the height of ignorance. The person I refer to is a professional who understands human dynamics very well, and so do I; you miss the point.

    What happens here is someone strings a couple of words together and another feels obliges to translate, dissect and expand them ad nauseam, then the originator replies in kind, escalating. I won't do that, whether misunderstood or not.

    Neither he nor I need a lecture.

    :: Come on! People need a break ... they were beat down enough as JWs, why keep telling them to grow up and start trying give structure and controlling them.

    Whaaaat? Structure? Controlling? You've made another gigantic leap. I just observed a lotta people need to grow up. No smiley, no sneery. Not forced, not coerced. "Lotta" is light, not meant to elicit a prickly response.

    I'd like to explore ways of giving people tools in an atmosphere where they CAN grow up. But that's another story.

    I have no intention of discussing this further. Hope you and yours have a wonderful Fourth!

    Warmly,
    Maximus

  • Eusebius Hieronymus
    Eusebius Hieronymus

    <Coolbreeze,you said "Come on people grow up."

    <Very good advice.

    <neyank

    Seems to be a general thought. So?

    No one concludes from this that neyank or CoolBreeze are calling for control, structure, or the like. Sometimes the response to a post looks like it's just on autopilot. Not commensurate, reading into something what is not there.

    Just my 2.

    Jerry

    Jerry

  • patio34
    patio34

    Very good thread, Philo. It's good to have these ideas to counterbalance the anger and hurtful comments we can sometimes make.

    Amazing, thanks for the sympathetic view of folks who have had decades of that tack. And also, JWs are intolerant of other viewpoints, so it takes a bit to cultivate a tolerant viewpoint.

    Maximus, very good points. People who are irate are hurting. That's a good thing to remember.

    I just love this group for the most part and it's a good stimulus to me.

    Thanks to all for their participation.

    Pat

  • Eusebius Hieronymus
    Eusebius Hieronymus

    Don't want to see philo's post get buried in Troll-land and droll-land.

    Jerry

  • Eusebius Hieronymus

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