JUSTICE #15 - Parking Lot DFing

by Amazing 32 Replies latest jw friends

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  Amazing

  Hi Tina: I think that several, mostly women, read emotions into this account that were not there. I think if you read it again, and also read my supplement to the post, which was posted separately, you might get the story straight.

  For example, Mommy Dark accuses my of making two trips to the 'Worldly' home and says that is harassment, and then says my credibility is damaged. Let's take that apart.

  1. I made one trip, and I only asked to speak with a girl who was being coached by people who did not see our side of the equation. ONE trip to visi is NOT harassment. The girl did not accuse us of harassment until AFTER that ONE TRIP and her letter was obviously written for her.

  2. My credibility damaged because I was a Society boy as an Elder? What in the hell kind of logic is that. OF COURSE I WAS A JW ELDER THROUGH AND THROUGH. DUH! Geeze! Get a life people! Yes, I saw harm and it bothered me, but I was a true believer. It was the years of harm, and the failed prophecies and the conflict with reality that wok me up. I tell these Justice Series so that people will see the hard core honest aspects of JW Justice, whether or not it makes me look good. IN that sense, this should actually enhance my credibility. Also, if your read the inrotduction to my Justice Series, you would understand that I too was a part of the problem as a JW Elder. It was not like I was a secret agent!

  What do you think Ray Franz was for 59 years as a JW? Do you think he was loyal to the system? Absolutely! He finally got to the point where the conflicts with his conscience and the religion were too much to cope with, and he left.

  3. If you read the account again, and my supplement you will see that it was I who offerred the creative approach to take all pressure off of the girl. I did not want a JC. And the reason I wanted to talk to her was to avoid her getting DA'd so she would not be SHUNNED! But before I knew it, we were in a JC. One of my earlier posts was similar, but no emotional reactions came then.

  The girl wanted out, and were we in this one case trying to give her an out so she would not be shunned. But she demanded the DA label under threat of lawsuit. Her parents demanded action. And we just fell into the trap of being JW Elders first, and human beings second.

  I am sorry if my being a JW comes as a surprise to some, but what in the hell did they think I was, a secret agent from heaven? Geeze. I have been out 9 years, and I would not go back for anything. I think organized religion is more dangerous than helpful, or at least the risks of abuse are too high.

  If the truth, and honesty, and candor, and open admission on my part destroyes my credibility, then let me know if I should suspend my Justice Series and I will. - Amazing
• 

  Tina

  Evening Amazing,

  I did not bring up cedibility in my post. Where did you see that? It most certainly wasnt there.
  And why would you stop posting such a fine series? Did I request that as well? NO,I didnt.
  I've read every'Justice" post. I appreciate the information and true life pathos.
  It goes with the territory that on occasion,some issues are going to emotionally 'jerk' at us. That some will see not only an issue in question,but underlying ones as well. A subtext.
  I most certainly appreciate the candor of the series. I commend you for such forthright honesty.
  I can see where presenting some of these scenarios are often painful for you. It takes a lot of fortitude to say-Here's what happened". Sometimes I went with the partyline,most times I tried to be a cushion against the hardliners. You were in a tough position.
  I do hope you continue to post your series. I never intimated for you to stop....possibly a slight 'over-reaction' on your part as well?
  Again,thanks for the "amazing' series. I look forward to more! warm regards,Tina
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Tina: You are correct in that you didn't make some of the allegations that I cited. When I read your post is came at the end of several supporting MommyDark who took a harsh stand with me, as though I was trying to justify something about JW Elder and Watch Tower justice. Far from it, I was, as you stated, simply stating how it was. So, I lumped together a number of items.

  In my supplement to Justice #15, I clarified more of this. But MommyDark took some things and created misunderstanding, and made allegations based on her own embellishments.

  No, I don't plan to stop the series. It was more of a rehtorical poiunt I was making. The context of these series is that they took place in the 1980s, and therefore, I am far removed from them. I culd never, even with training and the best of experience, even engage in this kind of religious court system ever again.

  I think you made a good point in stating that maybe some of the Justice posts strike a strong chord with some, and perhaps MommyDark was also overreacting, and forgetting where I am at now as opposed to what I was then. It is an easy transition to make, and one that I do myself at times. Thanks again for posting back your thoughts and kindly stating things. - Amazing
• 

  sawthelight

  Hello all
  Sister s was being sent off to live with her grandparents to get her away from her worldly boyfriend. This type of situation also ocurred in my area and i was wondering how prevelent it was. One particular family had daughters who had model/movie star good looks and this approach was tried-unsuccessfully. I also noticed that it was the families who were stronger in the "truth" who tried this(ie the father was a MS or Elder. It seemed to me that having someone else do the work of keeping you family in subjection would disqualify a man from either position on the basis of the scriptural qualifications. On the flip side someone once said to me(very sarcastically) that young ones who were sent away could srew around ten times as much and no one locally had to know about it. Any thoughts
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  Roamingfeline

  HI Amazing,

  I wanted to clarify my earlier post. It seems you thought we were all just following MD's thread of opinion. I wanted to clarify my words.

  I thought I made it clear that I, personally, was seeing your post as just putting everything out there for us to see, whether you looked good or bad in it, so we could see the injustice. I SAW that injustice was perpetrated on the girl, and what your part was in it, and commented that I thought the second visit, although it was the first visit to the "Worldly" home, was harassment. I further stated that I thought the parking lot JC was a Kangaroo court. I stand by that statement.

  However, I guess I didn't make clear that I feel it is highly commendable of you to post these things just as they happened, even though the evidence against who you were then can be very damning, at least in THIS particular case. I give you credit for trying to keep the girl from being shunned. At the same time, I can clearly see you also were "going with the flow" of the organization and the male ego was highly involved, at least in this case.

  Yes, I agreed totally with Tina's posts, both the first and last one. I, too, very much appreciate your posting the Justice series. It gives great food for thought, and exposes the Organization for what it is: Corrupt to it's very core. Thank you.

  RCat
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  Roamingfeline

  SawtheLight,

  I see your subject as belonging on another thread entirely. It's not what we're discussing here. Why don't you post it on it's own as a separate thread?

  RCat
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  Trilobite

  Amazing,

  It seems to me that Mommie Dark is correct and that you misrepresented what she said. You said that

  "For example, Mommy Dark accuses my of making two trips to the 'Worldly' home and says that is harassment, and then says my credibility is damaged. Let's take that apart."

  I don't think Mommie D suggested that at all. The young woman had asked you kindly, in her original letter, not to make any attempts to try to get her back into the organization. As you noted, "you couldn't go along" with her wishes. Instead, you chose to ignore that explicit request and visited her at her new location anyway. That constitutes harassment, although probbaly not in a legal sense. It was this which apparently produced the certified letter. In that letter she accused you of harassment, correctly in my book, because you ignored her explicit request. You then went on to harass her in other ways. You seem to define harassment more in terms of the number of times it ocurrs rather than in terms of how your actions were perceieved. The girl correctly figured out what you would do and you did it. It is standard JW protocol; start with kindness and then finally weild the big stick. Yuk. Who was your bro' elder, Luigi, from the New York fish market?

  It takes some guts to admit to participating in such activities; however, it does no good to justify any part of them post facto. I'm sure you were acting from what you considered to be "good motives." Nevertheless, the supposedly "kind" elders who participated in this incident demonstrated that, when crossed, they would apply the ultimate sanction. Mommie D has hit it on the nose when she says;

  "Too bad for your feelings! You were WRONG and no amount of justification will make it right. Your 'good' motives? Your ARROGANT PATERNALISTIC HIERARCHICAL motives! She felt harrassed. WHy are your feelings of more value than hers?"

  I'd not necessarily go along with her advice about adding a shaker full of salt when reading your justice posts; after all, your perhaps understandable but certainly nausea inducing attempts to whitewash a truly nasty deed suggests that the basic story is correct.

  I have to say Amazing, that reading this post made me squirm; a lot of us did things which clearly sucked while we were Dubs. What made me squirm was the "elderly" way in which you are trying to justify some of your actions.

  Trilobite
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  sawthelight

  Point taken Rcat
  and i've done just that
  sawthelight
• 

  Roamingfeline

  I must admit, Trilobite has a very valid point, Amazing. The word Squirm does describe how I felt when reading the story. You see, the elders in the KH where I attended always acted in this manner, also. Their egos were unbelievably out of bounds. And yes, be honest with yourself here. Didn't it make you feel bad, just thinking about who you used to be? Did you feel some need to "whitewash" or "justify" such behavior, because you can't stand to believe that you acted in such a way?

  Just some questions you might pose to yourself. I don't hold it against you now, as it is patently apparent that you realize the way that things are done in that organization are blatantly sexist and WRONG. However, Trilobite and MD are both right in spotting that some justifying/whitewashing were going on in that telling of the story. Maybe you still have some inner work to do, to cut out that part of the ego which still justifies such actions? In any case,

  Best regards,
  RCat
• 

  safe4kids

  Amazing,

  I haven't read this entire thread and I'm not going to. When you originally posted the story, I read it and appreciated what you were sharing with us. I am a bit turned off by what I percieve as attacks on you for posting it...let me assure you that I didn't get the impression that you were trying to 'justify' anything. And I see absolutely no need to try to pick apart actions that occurred years ago when you were a "loyal company man"...of course you were!! But now you tirelessly point out the errors, the corruption, the absolutely shitty WTS thinking...and you are more courageous than most in honestly and openly talking about the things that you were involved in while an elder. I echo Tina and Rcat...please continue the Justice series, I too appreciate them.

  Thanks,
  Dana

  "A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born."
  Antoine de Saint-Exupery