Talked w/a JW Yesterday - So glad I'm out

by Seeker4 25 Replies latest jw friends

  • Seeker4
    Seeker4

    It's been quite a while since I've written anything here, maybe a couple of years. Some may remember me, Seeker4, from the old H2O, or the early years of this one. I was a JW for about 35 years, MS, elder for about 15, pioneer, all of it. Very active.

    I left the Witnesses about 10 years ago, prompted by the change in the teaching on the 1914 generation, and posted several hundred times here online. It was a great help getting things out and finding people dealing with the same Watchtower Society and Bible issues that I was. My life has gone on, very, very happily, I might add, though I stay somewhat connected to the Witnesses as my wife, mother and daughter are all still active.

    Yesterday I was at my mother's house, and she said there was this Witness that wanted to talk with me about some issues from when I was still an active elder. This Brother was having problems with an elder I know well, and he felt the elder was abusing his authority, was tyrannical and domineering, constantly tried to pry into everyone's private life, and always felt that he was right. I'm sure that was all pretty much true - the elder has been that way for the over 40 years I've known him, and certainly is that kind of an elder. I've heard similar, not-so-flattering definitions of him many times from many different friends over the years.

    I agreed, somewhat reluctantly, to talk with the Brother. It was one of the few times in the last five years that I've had any kind of a conversation like this with an active Witness. The last time was when a former Circuit Overseer came to see me, one who is now off the road but serving as a congregation elder, and who essentially agreed with what I felt about the Society and the Witnesses. He'd just decided to stay because he saw so many people who needed help. I wrote about that conversation, and the thread has actually been resurrected a couple of times over the past few years, and might still be in the archives somewhere if anyone is interested.

    At any rate, yesterday I ended up talking with this Brother for a couple of hours, with my Mom, the JW, present, along with my sister, who is not a Witness but is quite familiar with them. At the end of the conversation, I was just so thankful that I had gotten out of the Organization. The conversation had been a huge reminder to me of all the things that had driven me away from being a JW.

    For example, the very reason he came to see me - dissension among a group of people who are often far too involved in one another's lives. The WTS set the example itself for most of its history - tell people what to wear, how to groom themselves, who to marry, how much education to get, what employment to have, what medical treatment is permissable, what kind of sex to have with your mate, what songs to listen to and play, what movies to watch and on and on. That bleeds over into the body of elders feeling that all of these areas are OK for them to question and counsel the friends on, whether that is asked for or not. But some may say, as did this Brother yesterday, that all of this is in the Bible, not coming from the WTS. Well, there has been a huge amount of interpretation and opinion by the Society and the elders in all of these areas, just ask any brother who wanted to have a moustache or longer hair in the 60s or 70s, or a beard even til today. Like any high control group, the Witnesses have to feel it is OK to delve into all of these areas of the member's lives. It is a part of how control is kept.

    It has been wonderful for the past decade not to feel that, as an elder, I had some sort of responsibility to get involved in telling other people how to live their lives, or to have to listen to the complaints about the elders that go overboard with that.

    I also saw what a classic case this was. The Brother who wanted to talk to me has been a baptized Witness for over 40 years, but never served as an elder or MS, by his own admission, because he was too outspoken and wouldn't let the elders cover over stuff. How many brothers like that have you met over the years? Lots. And now here he was in another congregation, dealing with another domineering elder. I told him that I'd seen this same thing over and over through all the decades I'd been a Witness, and it was obvious the situation was still the same. I told him he was very unlikely to be able to do anything about the problem elder, and that it was much more likely that he was going to end up being disfellowshipped himself for causing problems. He said that could never happen, because he "was just telling the truth." I let him know that I was aware of a lot of people who'd been thrown out and were simply telling the truth. Doesn't do a lot of good when you don't have any power to go along with it!

    Enough on that. Let me just quickly hit a few of the other things that happened in the course of the conversation that are just Witness responses that will eventually drive any thinking person out of the Organization.

    "Jehovah is testing us." Or, "We're being tested by this," and Jehovah is just allowing it. Doesn't matter what awful thing it is, WTS mistakes, elder screwups, lying and slander in the congregation, etc., it's being allowed as a test for us. That argument fell flat for me years ago when I realized that if any father were to "test" his family in the way the Witnesses say Jehovah tests us, he'd be considered an abusive parent, if not a madman, and his family would be taken from him in a second!

    The Society is just made up of imperfect humans, and they make mistakes. Absolutely true. And if it's true, then don't ever claim to be speaking for God. And trust me on this one, you can find a ton of examples where the WTS says it is doing just that, especially through the Governing Body.

    Don't trust science. The Brother was classic on this, kind of repeating a jumble of two or three scientific mistakes and hoaxes from a century ago, and even getting those wrong to boot, and using that to say that all of science is inaccurate. I wouldn't say that all Witnesses are anti-science, but it's very much pick and choose with regard to science. The article by the JW who was a physicist earlier this year in the Awake! essentially made that point. Where science and the Bible disagree, he said he had to go with the Bible. Hmmm... not much of a scientest in my book.

    Scientests are in cohoots to disprove the Bible. Sure, and they have that big, annual Let's All Lie About the Real Facts of Nature Convention. No scientest would want to assure his immortality by actually coming forward with the evidence being so carefully hidden that the Bible, and especially Genesis, is literally true. Sure!

    Be numb as a fencepost when it comes to understanding even the most basic examples that prove Genesis cannot literally be true. I gave up after 10 minutes of trying to explain to this poor Brother that the ice core samples from all three major ice sheets on Earth go back at least 160,000 years, and that they prove conclusively that there has been rain and snow and not a tropical earth during all that time. They also prove that there was never an earthwide flood just over 4,000 years ago. This guy just shut down his brain, you could almost see it. He did the same with a couple of other examples - like when I told him about my seeing the fossilized stomach contents from a dinosaur, complete with the bones of the animals it ate, long before the flood, and long before any animals were allowed to eat each other,at least according to what Genesis says. Like millions of years before. That's when he started trying to tell me that there were dinosaurs after the flood, the only explanation that makes Biblical sense, but which is just sooooo not true.

    You must be really smart. Ah, haven't I heard that one before. You're questioning, you're thinking, you say when things don't make sense. You must be smart and you know what that means, you're trusting in your own thinking and not in what the Bible or the WTS is telling you, and that's a huge mistake. The Witnesses, like all the fundamentalist groups, simply have to mistrust real intelligence and reasoning. It is a huge danger to them when someone from the crowd calls out, "The emperor has no clothes on!"

    You shouldn't be mad at Jehovah. Come on, I don't think I was all that angry a Santa Claus when I found out he didn't exist. What silliness. But part of the mythology the Witnesses create that anyone who leaves must be stumbled by the brothers, angry at Jehovah, or prideful. It can never simply be because what the WTS teaches about the Bible simply makes no sense.

    This is how Satan wants you to think. Satan wanted you to leave the JWs, and he's corrupted your mind. The wonderful thing when you take the mythologies literally - there's always some bigger thing out there, good or bad, to take all responsibility for what you think and do, and for working out your life. It was discovering that Satan is hardly ever mentioned in the Bible until about 4,000 years into it that was part of the reason I stopped believeing. Read the Genesis account carefully - NO mention of Satan anywhere. You've got to wait until the Greek scriptures 1000s of years later before someone informs you that the serpent in Eden was Satan. Real nice of Jehovah to leave out that little detail for his people for a few millenia, eh?? "You've got this hidden, incredibly powerful enemy, invisible to you, and he wants to turn you away from me and destroy you." Only God leaves that out for a long, long time. The Book of Job, you say? Still a few thousand years after Eden, biblically speaking, and if you believe that is a literal account of anything, than you also believe that people in those days spoke in their eqivalent of iambic pentameter poetry for days at a time. Surely you jest!

    OK, I've ranted enough. But do you get the idea? This Brother thought he might help me to reconsider my leaving the Witnesses, when what he really did was show me all the reasons I left, and why I'm so happy not to have to live life denying what science and my own reason prove to me everyday. Or that I never again have to spend tons of time dealing with a dysfunctional congregation or body of elders.

    Yahoo. Free at last.

    S4

  • avishai
    avishai
    OK, I've ranted enough

    Not even colse to enough. That was one of the best posts I've read in a looong time. Fantastic.

  • orangefatcat
    orangefatcat

    Wow that was some converstation you had with that witness. Thank God I left that organization, they are all kooks as far as I am concerned. Now I am no talking about everyone I am refering basically to the upper eshellons. I really enjoyed having good friends an miss many of them.

    I appreciated your fine remarks that you have stated and bear repeating again.

    For example, the very reason he came to see me - dissension among a group of people who are often far too involved in one another's lives. The WTS set the example itself for most of its history - tell people what to wear, how to groom themselves, who to marry, how much education to get, what employment to have, what medical treatment is permissable, what kind of sex to have with your mate, what songs to listen to and play, what movies to watch and on and on. That bleeds over into the body of elders feeling that all of these areas are OK for them to question and counsel the friends on, whether that is asked for or not. But some may say, as did this Brother yesterday, that all of this is in the Bible, not coming from the WTS. Well, there has been a huge amount of interpretation and opinion by the Society and the elders in all of these areas, just ask any brother who wanted to have a moustache or longer hair in the 60s or 70s, or a beard even til today. Like any high control group, the Witnesses have to feel it is OK to delve into all of these areas of the member's lives. It is a part of how control is kept.
    Jehovah is testing us." Or, "We're being tested by this," and Jehovah is just allowing it. Doesn't matter what awful thing it is, WTS mistakes, elder screwups, lying and slander in the congregation, etc., it's being allowed as a test for us. That argument fell flat for me years ago when I realized that if any father were to "test" his family in the way the Witnesses say Jehovah tests us, he'd be considered an abusive parent, if not a madman, and his family would be taken from him in a second!

    I dont think that the organization will ever change how they do things with the private lives of JWS and so long as they are incharge then every JW's is at the mercy of the society.

    Feat is the dominate factor to keep witnesses in Line. Fear of reprisals, fear of displeasing God, fear of being disfellowshipping, and fear of the Battle of Armeggadon. That is what keeps witnesses from having any lives of their own. They are forever trying to keep up with the requirements of being a good mature witness and at the same time they are to enjoy life. I doubt that very much for how can anyone be happy with so many rules and regulations. Jehovah's Witnesses have forgotten to be human first. They have literally turned into yesbots and robots. May god have mercy on the poor souls who have been fooled by a man made organiztion. I hope that many continue to flee this Organization as quickly as possible.

    Also it is good to see you back and posting again, I hope to see more postings from you in the near future.

    Well once again Seeker I enjoyed your post very much

    Love Orangefatcat.

  • 4JWY
    4JWY

    S4 ~ thank you so much for all of your great insights shared!

    Just printed your post for my husband to enjoy with his coffee this morning

    Warm regards,

    4jwy

  • blondie
    blondie

    "Jehovah is testing us." Or, "We're being tested by this," and Jehovah is just allowing it. Doesn't matter what awful thing it is, WTS mistakes, elder screwups, lying and slander in the congregation, etc., it's being allowed as a test for us. That argument fell flat for me years ago when I realized that if any father were to "test" his family in the way the Witnesses say Jehovah tests us, he'd be considered an abusive parent, if not a madman, and his family would be taken from him in a second!

    Hi Seeker4, I remember your excellent posts.

    This point resonated most with me since I just read something in a WT publication saying this exact thing.

    All I could think of was this scripture.

    When under trial, let no one say: "I am being tried by God." For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. JAMES 1:13

    Blondie

  • Uzzah
    Uzzah

    Seeker, great to see you and hear an update!

    Yeah, everytime I have any dealings with JW's I shake my head wondering how I could have missed the banality of the whole thing!

    I took my JW nephew away for a weekend (first time allowed for him to be alone with his evil apostate Uncle) and hearing some of the things coming out of his mouth, his fear of demons in video games, his judgemental comments about stuff on TV, his lonliness at being so different at school. (the weekend was fun but it broke my heart seeing him at 12 going through all this unnecessary crap)

    A group of us (Iiz2cool, Countrygirl and her hubby) were out last night and commented about how the Society is really burying itself. We apostates don't need to make stuff up, their own teachings and twisted reasoning is enough for most thinking people to figure out.

    Glad to see you make the occasional appearance Seeker. Your balanced and reasonable approach was always appreciated.

    "J" /Mod101 from the ole H20 daze

  • Evesapple
    Evesapple

    I don't typically bother reading really long posts.....but that one I couldn't stop reading. You hit all the points....AMEN!!!

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    Hey Seeker4...................nice to see you again!!

    Sounds like a "stimulating" discussion.

  • Seeker4
    Seeker4

    Hey, Mulan and others, good to hear from you again. And yeah, it was a long post. Oh, well...you know how it can get at times, the need to get something on paper (or pixel, as it were).

    Funny thing has been happening for me at work. I'm the assistant editor for a weekly newspaper now, have been for going on two years, which is part of the reason I haven't posted - just wanting to get on with the rest of my life is another. Lots of things to be done, and I've posted plenty on H2O and had my say over the years.

    What I find interesting at work, is that in the newsroom, where we have about 10 people working, I'm the resident religion expert. What's fun, is that I can talk about the Bible and religion, and just present the information. I now have nothing to prove, nor to defend. I'm not out to convince anyone NOT to believe, nor make fun of them for believing. So, whether agnostic or strong believer, everyone in the office comes to me to find out what's what with the Bible or religion in general. During the Passion of Christ controversies, we had several really long group discussions, with everybody throwing questions my way: So how come the Romans and the Jews were both involved in killing Jesus? Is this in the New Testament? Where would I find all this? Who were the Apostles? Was St. Paul there? Who wrote the Bible? What was the Temple? On and on. What people liked was being able to ask, get a few different sides of the issue in my answer, without a bunch of proselytizing or arguing or someone trying to prove a point.

    I've had to laugh about it, because I've probably talked about the Bible and Christianity more in the last couple of years than a lot of "Witnesses" do. I mean, I know a ton of JWs who really don't go out in service anymore. The joke around my office is that the resident Bible and religion expert is also the office atheist!

    Good to hear from you all. As you can tell, I'm still writing for a living - more so than ever. My wife is at the convention today, while I'm hanging around exploring the Connecticut River with one of my grandsons, on a beautiful, sunny New England day. I can guess which one of us is enjoying life a bit more today. But then, every day has been really good for me.

    S4

  • seeitallclearlynow
    seeitallclearlynow

    Hi Seeker4 - I appreciated your post and I think it will be helpful to others trying to escape from the quagmire that is their "Truth".

    - quagmire: n. 1) a soft boggy or marshy area that gives way underfoot. 2) a hazardous or awkward situation.

    "Jehovah is testing us." Or, "We're being tested by this," and Jehovah is just allowing it. Doesn't matter what awful thing it is, WTS mistakes, elder screwups, lying and slander in the congregation, etc., it's being allowed as a test for us. That argument fell flat for me years ago when I realized that if any father were to "test" his family in the way the Witnesses say Jehovah tests us, he'd be considered an abusive parent, if not a madman, and his family would be taken from him in a second!

    The Society is just made up of imperfect humans, and they make mistakes. Absolutely true. And if it's true, then don't ever claim to be speaking for God. And trust me on this one, you can find a ton of examples where the WTS says it is doing just that, especially through the Governing Body.

    Thanks for posting your conversation - he may think about what you've said; how can he not?

    I hope you have an update for us soon, and good to hear from you again!

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