587 BC for Total Dunderheads

by Farkel 96 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    scholar,

    : You are quite correct, only a dunderhead could accept a hypothetical date 587 for the Fall of Jerusalem. The WT Society using reliable biblical data computes this event for 607. A foolproof methodology of 539 for the Fall of Babylon followed by the release of the Jews under Cyrus in 537 which ended their exile to Babylon and the desolation of the land of seventy years. One merely fixes the beginning of these momentous events by adding seventy years to 537=607. Boy that is so easy.

    Baloney. The hard problem you are forever unwilling to face is that you cannot tie Jesus' statement about the times of the gentiles to Daniel's prophecy. Show Biblical evidence that there is ANY scripture tying the two together. Even if the year 607 BC is the correct year for Jerusalem's destruction, SO WHAT? They were only in captivity for 70 years that time around. The WTS states that the Gentile Times is a long period where the Jewish people would be "trampled" upon by gentile nations. What about the 400+ years they were slaves by the Egyptians? Do you deny that that period of SLAVERY which is almost six times as long as their mere Babylonian captivity was NOT a period of being "trampled" upon by gentiles?

    Furthermore, the WTS claims that gentile nations would no longer "trample" on the Jews when the Gentile Times ended. The WTS claims that happened in 1914, but the facts of history shows that the Jews didn't even receive their own lands back until 1948, a full 34 years after those supposed Gentile Times ended.

    You FIRST have to prove Biblically that the Babylonian captivity in question is the start of the Gentile Times. Only THEN can we talk dates and invisible second presences and invisible resurrections and invisible "Babylonish captivity" and invisible "spiritual cleansing" and invisible "selecting" of the one and only true Watchtower Corporation as God's earthly spokesman.

    Farkel

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    You know this 70 years discussion is quite amazing. But excuse me for pointing out that IT IS NOT AN OPTION to characterize the 70 years as anything other than an "error" or a literal period of time. That is because one you start to question the reference, once of the first sources you go to RESEARCH this is how the Jews themselves interpreted their OWN period of 70 years. In that event, Josephus clearly indicates in "Antiquities of the Jews" a historical reference that has sources other than the Bible including, most importantly, Jewish traditional history, that the 70 years began with the last deportation (year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar) and ends with the 1st of Cyrus.

    So creatively deciding whatever you want about the 70 years is not an option. Since the Jews considered this historical you have to consider that position on the 70 years and since that shifts to a conflict with the Babylonian records, then either Josephus got his numbers wrong or the Babylonians did. Since no one here is able to dismiss Josephus' statement as incompetent compared to the Babylonians, it remains a viable position. So any and all statements that the 70 years was not considered a literal period of time are historically and academically incompetent. There is simply no other choice here because of Josephus. Josephus says there were 70 years from the last deportation when the "people went off their land" in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar to the 1st of Cyrus. That's an independent secular reference. It will factor in regardless what what the Bible says about the 70 years. That is, if you want to excuse the Bible's references to any 70 years from the "chronological" comparison to Babylon, that's fine, but Josephus, as an academic reference will still have to be considered. Simply ignoring it does not work -- that's incompetent research, evaluation, etc.

    Darius the Mede vs Darius I in Zechariah: Those like myself who believe this must apply to Darius the Mede and not Darius I look at the following context points in Zechariah:

    1. The context is that the 70 years in Zech 1 is 70 years from the "denunciation of the cities of Judah and Jerusalem" associated with the destruction of Jerusalem in year 19 of Nebuchadezzar. If that's the case, then this is 70 years after that, year 2 of Darius. However, this is a CONTINUOUS PERIOD OF DENUNCIATION. This is the 70th year of this desolation and denunciation, meaning that the cities were still in a "denounced state." What does that mean? This relates to the other contextual reference where it says, when will God be "showing mercy to the cities". What does it mean? When will God show "mercy" to the cities. That easily suggests that the cities were still desolated and God showing mercy to these cities would mean the cities would be allowed to come alive again when the people returned. Thus it's a critical point here that at this time, the Jews are still in exile in this "second" year of "Darius".

    2. Also countering the idea this is Darius I is that if the denunciation of the cities was now in its 70th year and God had not yet shown "mercy" to the cities in some way, then what happened when the Jews were released and returned to their cities? Didn't that account for something. The Darius I argument suggests that somehow, whateveer hapened 70 years earlier as far as God's denunciation had continued, completely irrelevant to the Jews return and their beginning to rebuild the city and temple. I find that less acceptable than this being the 2nd year of Darius and the Jews are still in exile during this time, waiting to be released in the 1st of Cryus, which would occur after the 6th year of Darius per the Bible's chronology.

    3. That chronology is supported by the JEWISH HISTORIAN JOSEPHUS who does not begin the 70 years of "desolation" of the land until it was desolated of people beginning the 23rd year of Neb-2 at the time of the last deportation. That means, therefore, that 70 years after the "denunciation" of the cities, the destruction of the Jerusalem, the Jews still would have been in exile! Why? Because if the 70 years didn't begin until 4 years after the fall of Jerusalem then the return was 74 years after the fall of Jerusalem, thus in year 2 of "Darius" there were 4 more years to go. So per Josephus and the Bible, Darius the Mede would have ruled for 6 years over Babylon while the Jews were still in exile until Cyrus took over the throne and began recounting his years as Year 1.

    4. Now as a side note, the chronology time line put forth by Sir Isaac Newton, way back when, a known head of the Priori of Sion and thus suspicious for fostering the revised chronology, still clearly understands Darius the Mede as a historical figure and specifically assigns him a 2-year rule before "abdicating to Cyrus" and indicates the Jews were still in exile at that time. Now granted he contradicts the Bible's 6-year rule for Darius the Mede, but Darius the Mede is a real king, ruled exclusively for 2 years while the Jews were still in exile before Cyrus became king. That's how he worked out the chronology. That contrasts with both Jehovah's witnesses and many here including Olof Jonsson who ignore this reference and consider that Cyrus began ruling immediately after he conquered Babylon, thus either being the co-ruler with Darius the Mede (JWs) during this 2-year period, or that he was in fact a cryptic reference to Cyrus himself as Jonsson suggests as a possibility. But it's hard to ignore that way back in Isaac Newton's time, he seemed to have no problems with the details of the reign of Darius the Mede and understood the Jews were still in exile during his sole reign which began immediately after the fall of Babylon and specifically that Cyrus did not begin his reign at the same time, but sometime afterwards.

    So in the end, you still have a legitimate contradiction between the Bible and Josephus on one side and the Babylonian records on the other.

    Finally, since the Babylonian dating is strongly reliant upon astronomical texts, primarily the VAT4956 which dates year 37 to 568BCE per several references, this date is completely questioned because of at least two other references in this text, previously thought to be "errors" but when compared with each other, matching the same astronomical year were considered an intentional reference to another year. Presuming there was a revision in the chronology, attempting to hide a secret reference to the original chronology in a "politically correct" and safe text that otherwise reflected the revised chronology would be the first presumption for any "double dating." Based upon that presumption, though, the matched dating of the "errors" to 511BCE would more affirmatively date per the Babylonian records year 37 in that year. Thus it is interesting when that dating derived directly from the astronomical text double-dating completely agrees with the Bible since that would date year 23 in 525BCE which 70 years later dates the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE, the critical date for the Bible's best reference to the "relative" chronology for dating the NB Period, since the Messiah arrives 483 years (69 weeks) after the "word goes forth to rebuild Jerusalem" -- clearly to some to be a reference to when the Jews first began to rebuild, not some time later when Nehemiah simply repaired the already rebuilt walls in just 52 days!

    So you have the Bible, Josephus and the VAT4956 per one alignment, however creative, in total agreement with both the 70 years from year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar in 525BCE and the 1st of Cyrus falling in 455BCE.

    NOW: In order to overturn this, someone here has to argue that the spurious dates in the VAT4956 were not intentional references to 511BCE and that was not the original chronology based upon some more reliable reference. But there isn't any other references! The most reliable reference would be the Jewish history comarison and the Biblical history comparison and since all of them are in agreement with the double-dating in the VAT4956, it's now simply a bias and fantasy to think tat 587BCE for the fall of Jerusalem is based on anything but revised records.

    I don't know, some people seem to just be able to ignore Josephus, the Bible, Isaac Newton and the astronomical text double-dating and hold onto just one reference for this chronology from the Pesian revised records and think that that's good enough to dismiss everything else. Fine for them, I suppose, but not for me. To be academically responsible, you must consider ALL the possibilities, including revisionism.

    JC

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Another problem for the anointed...

    The Anointed Dilemma of the 70 years: This is really not a problem but it is for those thinking that the 70 years was not literal. Thus those of the anointed who feel there are hidden messages in scripture sometimes relate isoalted references with others in scripture and this happens to be one of those cases. Not that 2 Chronicles 36 isn't plain enough that there were to be 70 years of desolation to "pay back" its sabbaths, that is, the LAND.

    That implies that 70 years were for the "missed" sabbaths in connection with the total time the Jews were to keep these sabbaths. Since this is related to the "land" this would be the sabbaths related to the land, that is, the agricultural sabbaths. This is related by some to the 390 years for Israel and the 40 years for Judah mentioned at Ezekiel 6. Of note, the divided kingdom of Israel did not rule for 390 years. ??? And certainly Judah, who ruled longer ruled for more than 40 years. So what really is this 390 years for Israel and 40 years for Judah about? Well, if you divide the 10 tribe kingdom into the 390 years you get 39 years for each tribe. This relates to the 40 years for Judah, just one year more, but they did rule longer. Thus the presumption is a collective reference for the entire nation of 430 years. Does this represent the missed sabbaths? We think so. Why?

    Because if you divide 430 by the two types of agricultural sabbaths the Jews were required to keep, then you get SEVENTY!

    430 divided by 7 is 61.4 430 divided by 50 (jubilee) year sabbath is 8.6 61.4 and 8.6 = 70

    So it would appear that the 70 years of desolation would have to be a literal 70 years of complete desolation of the land in order to make up for 430 years of missed sabbaths.

    From the chronologists point of view, who again looks at comparisons of jubilee cycles and other cycles. If you double the 430 years, presuming the Jews kept the correct sabbaths at least half the time, to get 860 years and then add the 70 years for make-up, you get a total of 930 years, just one year short of 19jubileess (931 years). When you date the 1st of Cyrus to 455BCE and add the 931 years you arrive at the date of the Exodus, 1386BCE (931 +455 = 1386).

    1386BCE for the date of the Exodus is matched by another indepdent references, including dating the Assyrian eponym eclipse usually dated to 763BCE by historians for month 3, to 709BCE which is 54 years later. The 763BCE dating actually requires the first month of the year to start before the spring equinox which was not the practice in later Babylonian times in genreal. That means the next exclipse in the series, 54 years and 1 month later, also falls in month three. This is thought to be the more likely original reference for this eclipse. When dating that ecllipse to 709BCE, the 925BCE invasion by Shishak gets moved down 54 years to 871BCE, the 5th of Rehoboam. Rehoboam and Solomon were co-rulers and the invasion by Shishak was DURING the reign of Solomon since Rehoboam was still over all the princes of israel at the time,if you will check the context. Jeroboam did not return to Judah until after Solomon died which would have been the following year in 870BCE. The temple was begun in his 4th year, 36 years earlier dating that event to 906BCE, and the Exodus 480 years earlier dates the Exodus in 1386BCE.

    So you have harmony from an eclipse reference and the jubilee cycle which shows that the Exodus was a jubilee year as well as the year the Jews returned from Babylon. Of course, these major events would be manipulated to fall on these special years to add significance to them. Thus it is very interestsing or perhaps understandable that the 50th jubilee from 455BCE falls in 1947, the year the Jews finally were restored to their homeland for the final time.

    All coincidences? Maybe, but the coincidences are adding up. It's difficult when you are spiritually sensitive to other references that relate to chronology, directly or indirectly, to ignore these indications when they affect possible choices you might have where some see some ambiguity in scripture or possibly some resolution with the pagan chronology.

    Thus all considered, the advanced anointed don't feel they have much choice in the matter of considering alternative views of precisely when the 70 years actually took place per the Bible; not that Josephus doesn't relate directly when this 70 years took place as far as the Jews are concerned, throwing into question whether the Babylonians and/or Persians had revised their records, something the ancients could easily do and often did per the evidence.

    Finally, there is a great article in BAR ("Biblical Archaeology Review") of some years ago that featured the exploration of ASHKELON, a very good city for historical reference. There it was found that a period of "70 to 80 years" of total destruction was followed by the Persian Period for that city. When they apply the shortened NB chronology, of course, they presume that Ashkelon was destroyed early in the reign of Nebuchadnezzar. But the fact remains, there is archaeological evidence that there was a total destruction of Ashkelon for a period that matched what the Bible claims.

    Now as a critical Biblical reference, the Bible prophesied that Ashkelon along with many other cities surrounding Judah and Israel would drink the bitter cup of Nebuchadnezzar and be desolated for 70 years. But of note, Jerusalem was prophesied to be the "first to drink" this bitter cup, followed by the other cited cities. Thus from the Biblical prophetic point of view, we do have a confirmation that at least one city which was exacavated that showed a reliable chronology fulfilled what the Bible prophesied, with the only difference being where you place those 70-80 years of desolation! Per the Bible it would have been after the 19th year; that is, after Jerusalem had first been destroyed and drank the bitter cup. In connection with this, again, as Josephus noted, the actual 70 years of final desolation of the land of the people did not begin until the 23rd year, 4years after the fall of Jerusalem.

    So whether or not historians and archaeologists are using what they believe to be reliable dating in connection with the Biblical chronology, the fact remains that at least at Ashkelon we have evidence of a literal 70-80 years of total destruction by fire ending with the Persian Period.

    A final peripheral reference, if you will, is the prophecy that mentions 70 years where Tyre would be "forgotten for seventy years" and then restored. This would be the same 70 years since Tyre was among those cited to drink this bitter cup of Nebuchadnezzar. Per JOSEPHUS, who claims Tyre was under siege for 13 years beginning the seventh year of Nebuchadnezzar, the siege would have ended in the 20th year of Nebuchadnezzar, a year after the fall of Jerusalem. So Tyre's 70 years of desolation, as well fits the prophecy that they would be desolated for 70 years after Jerusalem was desolated.

    If we factor in the context that Josephus gives us in Antiquities X, it appears the final campaign of Nebuchadnezzar which occurred in his 23rd year was the year he finally deported everybody out of the entire region including the few remaining Jews who had survived his execution who had fled down to Egypt. Josephus says it was these last Jews who were deported from Egypt in the 23rd year that finally ended the Jewish occupation of Judah and began this 70 years of desolation. It's reasonable that thus the 70 years for all these nations, already conquered but perhaps with a few occupants left behind as they had been at Jerusalem were finally deported out of the land in his 23rd year and thus the 70 years for Tyre, Ashkelon and others officially were counted from this last deportation of the people, leaving the entire region a complete desolated place.

    FINALLY EGYPT'S 40 YEARS!!! And finally you have the issue of Egypt's 40 years!!! Sorry but there is not enough time for Egypt to be desolated for 40 years and then restored with the current reduced NB chronology. History shows Egypt up and running when Cyrus began accosting Babylon since the Babylonians enlisted the Egyptians to help them repel Cyrus!! That's historical. When you add back in the 26 years that allows for 74 years from the fall of Jerusalem (year 19 of N2) to the 1st of Cyrus, there is enough years for Egypt to be conquered by Nebuchadnezzar in his 37th year and then be restored by the time Cyrus conquers Babylon 9 years later.

    So in the end, the specific chronology from the Persian and Babylonian records is quite clear about the chronology for this period, but the background references which conflict it at many points, plus the conflicting double-dating in some of the Babylonian astronomical texts that suggest a different dating and a longer period of the NB Period is simply too much to ignore. At some point, with all this evidence, one would responsibly have to seriously begin to question whether the Persians cleverly and comprehensively revised this period of their chronology, which would, of course, explain why there are so many conflicts, not just Biblically, but archaeologically and with other histories such as that of Josephus.

    For those who have alwayd had faith in the Bible's chronology, though, like Martin Anstey, bellieving it to be a book of truth and inspiration, intuitively dismissed the pagan records as accurate and dated the 1st of Cyrus in connection with the baptism of Christ to arrive at the 1st of Cyrus around 455BCE. There is now more than enough substantial evidence that directly supports that dating and thus they are quite pleased they have less arguments from challengers to the Bible's chronology. In fact, the beauty of the recent research is that you don't even have to have a Biblical confrontation with the secular regards. The VAT4956 and SK400 double dating actually contradicts itself, for instance. The 70 years of confirmed desolation of Ashkelon contradicts the shortened NB period as well and agrees with the Bible. Persepolis confirms that Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same king and that the city was built in just 5 years instead of 57 years; how could the archaeologists miss that one! Of course, archaeologists don't like to talk about Persepolis!! I wonder why?

    So while those with inadaquate research or understanding might be influenced to think the Babylonian records represent the best and last word in the chronology, others who have done their own comprehensive research see this position as greatly weakened and wonder why isn't this chronology more aggressively challenged. In that regard, with all their faults, Jehovah's witness have done a great job in starting the challenge of the pagan records, controlled, of course, by pagan Babylon the Great and her chief ministers beginning with the Catholic Church, an institution with a long history of suppression of truth and manipulation of false information for its own means.

    So we all have a choice.

    587 for the fall of JERUSALEM: HAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!! BWAAAAAAAA!!!! (oops, sorry, I didn't mean to laugh that loud. It was a spontaneous reflex..sorry...).

    or

    529BCE.

    JC

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    Hey Farkel (BA, BS, MA, MS PhD) You have to admit this Scholar guy is entertaining - reminds me of The Emperors New Clothes

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    stillelder,

    : Hey Farkel (BA, BS, MA, MS PhD) You have to admit this Scholar guy is entertaining - reminds me of The Emperors New Clothes

    LOL! I'm surprised anyone else would respond. I thought this thread was dead. That usually happens when "JCanon" takes a big crap in a thread on chronology and changes the subject to suit his agenda.

    Farkel

  • Alleymom
    Alleymom

    Farkel --

    Good post!

    If you take a look at

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx

    you will see a chart I made last year which illustrates this very simply.

    If you start with the WT's own date of 539 BCE and count backwards using WT literature for the lengths of the reigns of the kings, you will NOT reach 607 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Marjorie

  • Alleymom
    Alleymom

    Scholar --

    Is the information given in the WT literature cited in the following post accurate and trustworthy, in your opinion?

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/807453/post.ashx#807453

    If you use information about the neo-Babylonian kings found in WT literature and count backwards from 539 BCE you do NOT arrive at 607 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem.

    --- Is the starting date of 539 BCE accurate?

    --- Is the information about the reigns of the kings given in the WT literature accurate?

    --- If the starting date is accurate and the information about the reigns of the kings is accurate, then we ought to arrive at 607 BCE by counting backwards. But we don't. How do you explain this?

    Marjorie

  • toreador
    toreador

    Nope not dead yet. I am still reading it.

    JCanon, your posts are just too dang long.

  • ros
    ros

    Marjorie:

    Thanks for linking back to that post. I remember it and I think I copied it at the time, but now I know I have it.
    Very interesting observation!!!

    ~Ros

  • City Fan
    City Fan
    JCanon, your posts are just too dang long.

    It's just the same cut and paste BS that he usually posts. Now take his VAT 4956 double dating rubbish. The VAT 4956 diary has 30 astronomical references that have different cycles, e.g. the position of Saturn that repeats itself once every 29.5 years approximately. Another reference is the "lunar three" observations which repeat every Saros or 18 years 11 days approx. There are also conjunctions of Venus which repeat every 8 years and conjunctions of the Moon which repeat every 19 years.

    All these cycles only have one match, that is 568/567 BC.

    Now JCanon has an agenda which is to date this diary as 511 BC so as to prove his messiah-ness! So he ignores every observation in this diary as yet another conspiracy and sticks with the lunar conjunctions which repeat every 19 years. Unfortunately for him even to make a few of these references work he has to use a different measuring system than the Babylonians used and also has to ignore the scientifically proven and observable rate of decline of the Earth's rotational speed. This means his "double dates" only work from Honolulu!

    There are eclipses he changes for other dates to fit his agenda where Babylon is at Babylon, not Honolulu!

    I'm fully expecting more cut and paste BS in reply to this. Instead I suggest he goes on an astronomy course, or goes to the nearest psychiactric ward and checks in.

    CF.

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