Are you a hypocrite?

by Julie 13 Replies latest jw friends

Julie

Greetings all,
In light of the recent discussions on the death penalty in America I got to thinking. I wonder about the commandment Thou shalt not kill. Don't all Christians subscribe to this? There is no disclaimer saying, "unless you think they really deserve it" or anything, just don't kill. Period.
Isn't this one of the arguments used by the anti-abortion people? Aren't they quick to point at anything in the bible that might be construed as condemning "murder"?
The part that confuses me is this: here in America we have plenty of "good Christians", take for instance our Attorney General, John Ashcroft (featured in a recent AP article telling us why we need the death penalty). These fine people applaud, even demand the death penalty but are dead set against abortion. They see killing a fully formed human being as perfectly acceptable (even though God has not apparently "called him/her home" yet), while a group of cells that forms no discernable shape yet is to be valued above all else (regardless of circumstances).
It appears highly hypocritical to me for someone to be for the death penalty and against abortion.
Julie
Darkangel

Heya, Julie,
If you look at the origins of christianity, the Old Testament is mostly an eye for an eye justice. Maybe that's why the death penalty is acceptable.
It's only a thought. Pure speculation.
Angel
claudia

Although I consider myself agnostic, I feel capital punishment is sometimes good, and yet I hate abortion. Funny though I even felt the same when I was completely atheist. One I feel is punishment and the other just killing because it is more convenient.
AlanF

Hi Julie,
The basic commandments in the Bible boil down to not, "Thou shalt not kill" but "Thou shalt not murder." Murder is simply the illegal killing of a human. In biblical terms, who defines "murder"? God, or his agents.
The Bible of course is full of killing of humans, both by God and by other humans. Some of the killing was obviously not viewed by the Bible writers as murder, but as legal killing. Jews and Christians generally view the statement in Genesis 9, "anyone shedding man's blood, by man must his own blood be shed," as a behest from God to apply the death penalty to deliberate murderers.
Anti-abortionists who object to abortion for "biblical" religious reasons use either notion -- avoidance of murder, or of killing at all -- to justify their view. They certainly view the fetus as a full fledged human with full human rights, and so either way, they view killing of a fetus as the illegal taking of human life -- murder.
In view of the above, those who have no objection to the illegal killing of a human are not necessarily inconsistent or hypocritical when they support the death penalty and object to abortion.
The JW organization, though, has policies that are indeed inconsistent in how a fetus is viewed. They view all abortion as wrong, no matter when during a pregnancy it is done, because they claim that they view the fetus as a full fledged human from the moment of conception. Yet, these same people teach that naturally aborted fetuses will not have a resurrection. Why? Because the aborted fetus is not viewed by God as a full fledged human!
AlanF
Amazing

Hi Julie:
You said,
In light of the recent discussions on the death penalty in America I got to thinking. I wonder about the commandment Thou shalt not kill. Don't all Christians subscribe to this? There is no disclaimer saying, "unless you think they really deserve it" or anything, just don't kill. Period.
I think AlanF above noted that the commandment actually says 'murder' and not kill. But, even if it stated 'kill' that still does not matter. God later gave to the Hebrews commandments about stoning to death those who violated the law. Therefore, his command to execute justice is obviously not intended to be talking about people who kill in wanton acts, such as murder.
Isn't this one of the arguments used by the anti-abortion people? Aren't they quick to point at anything in the bible that might be construed as condemning "murder"?
Not at all. The Pro-Life movement believe that at the moment of conception a person is created, and not 9 months later when that are born. Therefore, in their view, to take an innocent life in the womb, a life that has not yet done anything to merit punishment, is willful murder. This argument is actually used as well by pro-abortionists. And it is not a good comparison.
You continued,
The part that confuses me is this: here in America we have plenty of "good Christians", take for instance our Attorney General, John Ashcroft (featured in a recent AP article telling us why we need the death penalty). These fine people applaud, even demand the death penalty but are dead set against abortion.
Absolutely. Killing an innocent baby in the womb is murder. It is far different than a judicial system that give a fiar trial, convicts and then executes a wicked killer who rapes, molests, cuts off body parts, eats your organs after sacrificing to the devil, and then keeps on killing for fun and sport.
They see killing a fully formed human being as perfectly acceptable (even though God has not apparently "called him/her home" yet), while a group of cells that forms no discernable shape yet is to be valued above all else (regardless of circumstances).
The 'fully formed' human being you mention has to have first been tried and convicted of murder. They are not just some guy off of the street, they are wicked people who have merited capital punishment. And innocent baby has done nothing to deserve such treatment. And why you seem to confuse these two issue is beyond me.
It appears highly hypocritical to me for someone to be for the death penalty and against abortion.
It is not hypocritical in the least. My above discussion draws the distinction. Abortion is murdering an innocent baby. And your comment about 'no discernable shape' show gross ignorance about the formation of the embryo and fetus. Take a biology course and look at pictures of what has formed in just a few hours, days and weeks, and then talk about 'no discernable shape.'
I for one am very pleased that my mother decided that I was more than a mere 'none discernable shape of mass tissue' but that I was a person she already loved and wanted to keep. That is the value I was raised with. On the otherhand, your arguments are utterly shallow, meaningless, and void of any merit or thought. - Amazing
proplog2

As an Atheist I see capital punishment as a left over from supersitious religion. Capital punishment is based on the religious notion of "free will".
Free will cannot be proven scientifically. Even if there were something called free will there is no objective way of determining whether a person who committs a dispicable act was doing so based on an exercise of free will.
Amazing

Hi Proplog:
You noted,
As an Atheist I see capital punishment as a left over from supersitious religion. Capital punishment is based on the religious notion of "free will". Free will cannot be proven scientifically. Even if there were something called free will there is no objective way of determining whether a person who committs a dispicable act was doing so based on an exercise of free will.
Free will is not just something left over from religious superstition. Accountability for individual actions is recognized by all nations. This is why we have courts, laws, rules, punishment, and restitution. If I drive drunk and hit someone and they die, I am held accountable even though I may have a disease called alcoholism. If an airline pilot operates his aircraft when he knows he is too fatigued, he can be held accountable.
Maybe science cannot prove in the strictest sense that we have 'free will' in the terms that society has always accepted, but I think that argument would be difficult to make in a court of law.
IN reality, religion recognizes 'imperfection' and that our 'free will' is somewhat limited by our sinful state. And as a society we do try to work with people to rehabilitate and give proper direction. But, some people insist on murdering, raping, buring, etc. And they must be dealt with. I believe that capital punishment is warranted in some limited cases. - Amazing
Julie

Hi to all--
Thanks for your input.
I have one question to all believers who can justify being for capital punishment. I notice there is much reference to OT/Hebrew teachings to justify this. Didn't all this supposedly change with the "new covenant"? Like moving on to a higher code of ethics type of thing?
And as for you Amazing,
:I for one am very pleased that my mother decided that I was more than a mere 'none discernable shape of mass tissue' but that I was a person she already loved and wanted to keep.
Me too Amazing. I am glad your mother loved and wanted you and I am sure she has never once regretted her decision. I only wish every child coming into this world could know such luxury.
:That is the value I was raised with. On the otherhand, your arguments are utterly shallow, meaningless, and void of any merit or thought. - Amazing
My, but aren't we on the offensive today? Have you ever seen photos of the various stages of development? I contend that while the fertilized egg is attached to and living off the lining of the uterus it is basically a bit of tissue that will one day be a human being.
And though you claim (ASSume)otherwise, I have given the issue a great deal of thought. But of course you are a man and I am sure you have never found yourself alone, scared, poor and pregnant. But I am sure you are still quite qualified (in your own righteous mind of course) to judge those who do find themselves in the depths of despair with such situations (of which a MAN played a 50% role in creating).
I am sorry to have stepped on your toes in the McVeigh thread Amazing. I don't have anything against you and don't consider you particularly stupid or anything in spite of my never-to-be-forgiven "I'll speak slowly for you" remark. It seemed you missed a few points I tried to make in that thread, I got frustrated at being misunderstood, and your attack-attitude tells me you are still insulted.
I now realize you are not at all stupid, just incredibly narrow minded and thin skinned. I'll try to go easier on you in the future so as not to upset you so badly. I can guess at how painful life can be for the thin-skinned folks like yourself. Hope the bronchitis is clearing up, I know first hand how horrible it can be.
Take care all,
Julie
Bendrr

Julie, it is equally hypocritical to say abortion is acceptable but the death penalty is not.
I'm pro-choice--the choice NOT to abort--but pro-death penalty.
God did call for life-for-life in the "eye for an eye" passage.
How I justify the difference you don't understand is this: the unborn baby up for abortion didn't do anything to deserve death. The death row inmate DID do something under law deserving of death.
mike.
Julie

For the record:
I don't like the idea of abortion *or* death penalty. I wish neither existed, like many other nasty things mankind has come up with.
But then again I wish people wouldn't go around murdering each other and making babies they didn't want/can't take care of (whatever the case may be).
I'm just one of those twisted, soft-hearted people who wishes everyone could treat each other in a humane way and that all babies born were coming into loving, healthy environments. Not very practical, huh?
Julie, the poorest philanthropist you'll ever know

Are you a hypocrite?

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