by hooberus 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
1 "up" quark + 1 "down" quark + 1 "strange" quark = 1 baryon
Quarks are the components of subatomic particles, yes, but that is not a fitting analogy to the trinity at all. Trinitarians, I believe, do not teach that God is made up of three components: Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost. How can God be a component of himself? If he is, then it doesn't matter anyway, because a quark is not a baryon.
This analogy is just as bad: 1 white + 1 yolk + 1 shell = 1 egg
A yolk is not an egg.
(1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3) x 1 = 1
Or (1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3) / 1 = 1 ?
Whatever the case, what we are discussing here is the 4th-Century "new light" of the Roman Catholic Church Inc., not the belief systems (plural required) associated with the NT texts. To me it is the speculative (and political) result of a desperate attempt to withhold the impact of a new (basically polytheistic) Hellenistic belief in the god-man Jesus within the boundaries of monotheism. An attempt which was eventually rejected by mainstream Judaism, Judeo-christianism and Islam, and only shrugged at by Gnostics.
azaria,
I understand that some Rabbis before, and during the time of Jesus did believe God as being "three in one." That is why many Jews at that time were able to accept Jesus as the Son of God.
There isn't even one historian in all the world who will back you up with a statement like the above. This farfetched idea illustrates to what extent trinitarians are willing even to re-write history in order to promote their theory.
Because we can?t understand it doesn?t make it untrue.
No one is saying it's untrue because no one can understand it. It's untrue because it isn't taught in the Bible at all. Why believe in something that has no clear-cut statement in the Bible that spells it out clearly enough for a child to understand?
If one truly wants the truth about the trinity you can find it.
People can find practically anything in the Bible if they go there with pre-conceived notions. When we rid our minds of what men have led us to believe and then let the Bible speak for itself, it doesn't shout out to us that God is a Trinity. Instead, God tells us tens of thousands of times that he is an "I" or "me" (singular person), not a "we" or an "us" (plural persons). Other thousands of times he is called "he" and "him" (singular person), not "they" or "them" (plural persons).
Maybe a silly example would be: Father is the Architect, the Son is the Actual Builder (one company, two different jobs)
It may disappoint you to learn that your illustration is the very one JWs use to teach their belief that God designed the universe but Jesus (as the Word) did the actual work of creation.
herk
I have a problem accepting the trinity teaching......however, there are a couple of scriptures that also cause me to consider this position.
Rev 1:8 God/Father is calling himself Alpha and Omega, yet Rev 1:17 Jesus is clearly speaking (as it says I was dead and behold am alive), and he calls himself the first and the last (alpha and omega). Then in Rev 22:12 says "Behold, I am coming soon" (who is coming again? Jesus of course) - and then calls himself the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. So it appears in Revelation that both God and Jesus refer to themselves as the Alpha and the Omega.
John 14:8 tells a story of the last supper, Philip says to Jesus "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough" - Jesus' response "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?" That struck me.
So - I still struggle with this issue and haven't decided yet - but I find arguments to support both sides in the bible.
I'm standing here beside myself.
herk, I am curiuos as to your beliefs, on the Father and Christ. Do you belive that Jesus Christ pre-existed his birth on earth? If so do you believe that he was an angel? Do you believe that he participated in creation? If so to what extent?
While Trinitarians believe that there is only one God, they also believe that there are distinct persons within the one God and that each person is God.
So the Holy Spirit being a person, had sex with Mary to make another part of his person in the womb of Mary a human, but the other part of this pesron was in heaven watching and saying -- that was a good lay -- makes perfect sense to me -- I must start believing this Trinity -- it so makes such a lot of sense
Off topic now -- I'm just curious about Hooberus: were you ever a JW? Are you pursuing a "Trinitarian mission" to (pros tous) xJWs? Is this mission (if any) restricted to those who are still in a somewhat "fundamentalistic" mind (as you suggested when dismissing my "polytheistic" comments on your previous Trinity thread)? I expected some comments from you on my "Son of God" thread, which could have been of some interest to you, but unfortunately you didn't appear...
I was never a JW. I do want JWs to know the real Jesus Christ of the scriptures. Though many former JWs here no longer reapect the Bible there are some here who do, and I hope that these revaluate who Jesus Christ is.
Alf said:Hmmm, so when it is "the word was God", it means, "the word was three eternal persons?" Interesting concept.
When it says "the Word was God", Trinitarians interpret this to mean that the Word was God by nature. The word God in the the specific phrase "the Word was God" refers to nature.
While I believe that the one God exists in the form of three persons, I do not believe that the greek word Theos itself specifically means "three persons" but that it means deity.
Sometimes the word Theos refers to nature such as "the Word was God", and sometimes the word refers to a specific person, such as "God the Father"
earnest said:I have recently been reading Augustine's writings on the trinity to try and understand how this teaching became the dogma of the church. I understand the insistence that the three must be one God in order to maintain the monotheism of the O.T. But when it speaks of the Word being with God I am uncertain whether trinitarians understand that to mean that the Word is with the triune God (which would surely then make four persons - Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Logos) or if it is understood that the Word is with God the Father.
Trinitarians generally interpret John 1:1 as meaning that the Word was with God the Father. This is due to the context of John chapter 1, as well as 1 John chapter 1.
If ho theos can refer to either the triune God or to God the Father specifically, is there any basis for differentiating when it refers to one or the other ?
ho theos can also refer to the Son (for example John 20:28; Hebrews 1:8). It depends on the context as to whether it refers to God in general (triune) or specifically to individual persons.
Re: the general word theos: Though it can refer to either the trinune God or to specific persons such as the Father, the word theos itself primarily means deity. Sometimes the word theos refers to nature such as "the Word was God", and sometimes the word refers to a specific person, such as "God the Father."
