A "Bloody" Question -- Hospital bound...!

by Rabbit 19 Replies latest watchtower medical

  • Rabbit
    Rabbit

    I will be having major back surgery within a month. I've read some of the posts about different 'new' blood substitutes/alternatives. Will someone please post the newest 'guidelines' from the WT ?

    Also, has there been a change on giving & storing your own blood to be used if needed ?

    I know, I know...most of you may be way past this issue now...I am still teetering. This is a nagging belief that is 'hanging-on'. It has been intriging to read how some say that 'Scientific Evidence' shows that when blood is transfused -- it cannot be used as food by the body...rather only as a carrier.

    This issue is still new to me (as far as changing my mind) so, does anyone have any references or links on this new 'Evidence' that might help me make up my mind ?

    One reason is, if my new non-JW wife is confronted by any JW relatives trying to 'help' her make decisions, I want to have things clearly in my mind & hers beforehand. My poor wife is befuddled enough by this religion as it is.

    Any help will be appreciated... Lee

  • avishai
    avishai

    Well, let's put it this way. In the bible, in ancient Israel, if you ate blood, you were'nt stoned, (i.e, permanently DF'd) you were sent outside the camp for a few days, same as if you touched a dead body, had your period, etc. Tehn you had to take a bath. When Saul and his army buddies ATE unbled meat to SAVE THEIR LIVES, God said it was cool. THAT WAS EATING!!!! TO SAVE LIFE.

    So, what I'm saying is, most of the mosaic and levitical laws were city code, health regs., most of which the dubs don't follow today. When is the last time you saw a dub turn down a cheeseburger for religious reasons? Plus, unlike modern orthodox jews, they get there meat from THE STORE!!! They say all the blood "cooks out". Pure unadulterated bullshit. Only water can "cook out". Not blood matter. That is why Jews get their meat from a shocket, a kosher butcher. If we JW's were really concerned, they would as well, instead, they eat blood every day, unless they are vegetarians.

    The blood issue is a terror tactic used by the wts to control people, creating "martyrs" to their cause. Killing babies with an ever changing law to give the hypocritical appearance of piety.

  • little witch
    little witch

    Lee,

    I hope your surgery goes well, you will be in my thoughts. I do not have the info but a question for you. Why would you trust a largely ex-jw site for such an important query? Wouldn't you feel better going to the official jw site?

    I hope you will care enough about yourself and your family to have a firm decision before your surgery. I say this out of concern, because if your views are not made clearly known, the hospital liason commitee will make the decision for you while you are unable to. Do yourself a favor and shred your bloodcard, and let your doctors know what YOU choose for your own healthcare.

  • Rabbit
    Rabbit

    little witch:

    I hope your surgery goes well, you will be in my thoughts.

    Thanks, I appreciate that very much.

    I do not have the info but a question for you. Why would you trust a largely ex-jw site for such an important query?

    I trust the people here, I do not trust the WTS anymore and will never walk thru another KH door. The question may sound a little odd, I may not have worded it just right. Read some of my other posts and you can see my situation. I am already being shunned by some family for getting married and expect to be DF at some point. I am at home here.

    I am needing to know what the current rules are about blood substitutes, etc. just in case I do get into a discussion with some JW family, I will be armed with what they know. I have been inactive 7 years. The hospital liason committee, I have locked horns with them before. I am afraid of some of my siblings showing up with an elder and them trying to confuse my new non-JW wife about my beliefs.She may be called upon to make a decision and since they were very devious in another relatives situation (they withheld some of the options that were available to all JW's & pushed their own conscience upon the non-JW relative who was making the the decision for the un-conscious JW !) I don't trust them !

    I very much believed this doctrine at one time, now I have doubts and I need to know the scientific arguement against it with references. I need to know about 'Hemopure' supposedly JW approved substitute, too. My main objection is getting diseased blood from someone by accident.

    Wouldn't you feel better going to the official jw site?

    NO, NO, NO-O-ooooooooo. I am trying to stay under-the-radar as it is.

    Avashai, thanks, too. It always made sense to me you can never get out ALL the blood. I was raised on a farm, no matter how you tried to bleed an animal properly -- you could not! It says NO blood, to me that means if there is any chance of any cells being eaten -- DON"T. Good point on becoming a vegetarian !

    I do not consider myself a JW anymore, I am trying to keep the peace and still do what I believe. There are still a few things I've been taught I still do believe, but, not very much. This is one of those nagging doubts I need to clear up.

    Thanks, Lee

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Associated Jehovah's witnesses for Reform on Blood, is a group online (do a google) that chronicals the changes and the hypocracy. They are suposedly all active Witnesses eager for change.

    Perhaps rereading Acts 15 would be helpful. The story goes that converts from the Pharisee camp were insisitng upon aspects of the Law to be retained, Paul's camp said not The solution posed was a compromise. It was urged that new Xtians voluntarily avoid eating things sacrificed to idols and things strangled (common method of Roman sacrifice) and from eating blood, and of course fornication. This was suggested because "Moses is being preached in city after city and read aloud in the synagogues" and ignoring this would effect the success of their proselytizing. This then was NOT intended to be a declaration of Xtian Law. As 1 Cor 8.7-13 and 10.23-33 read the matter of eating things sacrificed to idols was not a law, but a recommendation if they were aware that it might stumble a Jewish convert. In fact 8.8 specifically says that abstaining from blood (in food) does not comend the worshiper to God. Discuss the chapter in Acts with these relatives, since it is the sole basis for the WT law on blood transfusions using it to expose their error is appropriate.

  • shamus
    shamus

    Blood is considered an organ by the medical community. Always has been, always will be. The WTBTS says that you can accept organ transplants, so don't worry about it.

    Anyways, doctors do not want to use blood on you! That's a common misconseption. (sp) I highly doubt that they are even considering it in the back of they're minds right now. I have had many surgeries and have never ever had any blood. They just pop you full of iv fluids and tha'ts it.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    I suggest that you first figure out for yourself how you feel about it, then discuss it with your doctor, then put in writing what your wishes are. Give a copy to your doctor and your fiancee/wife. Any information you have heard about the dangers of blood are partially true, but designed to SCARE you in to never using blood. Me, I would trust my doctor to use blood only when appropriate to SAVE MY LIFE. For instance, if I am seconds from dying because of a haemorrhage, I will take my chances that I might possibly, fractionally, become infected with HIV. Gotta weigh the risks.

    I helped my JW honey wade through the doublespeak, and he settled on allowing any fractionated blood products and blood substitutes such as Hemopure in order to save his life, but not whole blood or platelets. The WTBTS still disallows the practice of storing your own blood before surgery, but really, what is stopping YOU from doing that?

    A comprehensive site: http://www.ajwrb.org

    Watchtower 1990 6/1 p. 30

    Questions

    From Readers

    ยท

    Do Jehovah?s Witnesses accept injections of a blood fraction, such as immune globulin or albumin?

    Some do, believing that the Scriptures do not clearly rule out accepting an injection of a small fraction, or component, taken from blood.

    The Creator first laid upon all mankind the obligation to avoid taking in blood: "Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you . . . Only flesh with its soul?its blood?you must not eat." (Genesis 9:3, 4) Blood was sacred and so could be used only in sacrifice. If not used in that way, it was to be disposed of on the ground.?Leviticus 17:13, 14; Deuteronomy 12:15, 16.

    This was no mere temporary restriction for Jews. The need to abstain from blood was restated for Christians. (Acts 21:25) Around them in the Roman Empire, God?s law was commonly broken, since people ate food made with blood. It was also broken for "medical" reasons; Tertullian reports that some men took in blood thinking that it could cure epilepsy. ?They quaffed with greedy thirst the blood of criminals slain in the arena.? He added: "Blush for your vile ways before the Christians, who have not even the blood of animals at their meals." Jehovah?s Witnesses today are just as determined not to violate God?s law, no matter how common it is for others to eat food made with blood. In the 1940?s, blood transfusions came into widespread use, and the Witnesses saw that obeying God required that they also avoid blood transfusions, even if doctors urged these.

    At first, most transfusions were of whole blood. Later, researchers began to separate blood into its primary components, for doctors concluded that a certain patient might not need all major parts of blood. If they gave him only one component, it would be less risky for him, and the doctors could get more use out of the blood available.

    Human blood can be separated into dark cellular material and a yellowish fluid (plasma, or serum). The cellular part (45 percent by volume) is made up of what are commonly called red cells, white cells, and platelets. The other 55 percent is the plasma. This is 90 percent water, but it carries small amounts of many proteins, hormones, salts, and enzymes. Today, much of the donated blood is separated into the primary components. One patient may be given a transfusion of plasma (perhaps FFP, fresh frozen plasma) to treat shock. But an anemic patient might be given packed red cells, that is, red cells that had been stored and then put in a fluid and transfused. Platelets and white cells are also transfused but less commonly.

    In Bible times men had not devised such techniques for using these components. God simply commanded: ?Abstain from blood.? (Acts 15:28, 29) But why should anyone think that it would make a difference whether the blood was whole or had been separated into these components? Though some men drank blood, Christians refused even if it meant death. Do you think that they would have responded differently if someone had collected blood, allowed it to separate, and then offered them just the plasma or just the clotted part, perhaps in blood sausage? No, indeed! Hence, Jehovah?s Witnesses do not accept transfusions of whole blood or of its primary components (red cells, white cells, platelets, or plasma) used to accomplish a similar purpose.

    As the question suggests, though, scientists have learned about specialized blood fractions and how to employ such. A common issue involves the plasma proteins?globulins, albumin, and fibrinogen. Likely, the most widespread therapeutic use of such is injecting immune globulin. Why is that done?

    Your body can produce antibodies against certain diseases, giving you active immunity. This is the basis for advance inoculation with a vaccine (toxoid) against polio, mumps, rubella (measles), diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis, and typhoid fever. However, if someone has recently been exposed to certain serious diseases, physicians may recommend an injection of a serum (antitoxin) to give him immediate passive immunity. Until recently such injections have been made by extracting immune globulin, which contains antibodies, from a person already immune. The passive immunity gained from the injection is not permanent, for the injected antibodies pass out of his system in time.

    In view of the command to ?abstain from blood,? some Christians have felt that they should not accept an immune globulin (protein) injection, even though it was only a blood fraction. Their stand is clear and simple?no blood component in any form or amount.

    Others have felt that a serum (antitoxin), such as immune globulin, containing only a tiny fraction of a donor?s blood plasma and used to bolster their defense against disease, is not the same as a life-sustaining blood transfusion. So their consciences may not forbid them to take immune globulin or similar fractions. They may conclude that for them the decision will rest primarily on whether they are willing to accept any health risks involved in an injection made from others? blood.

    It is significant that the blood system of a pregnant woman is separate from that of the fetus in her womb; their blood types are often different. The mother does not pass her blood into the fetus. Formed elements (cells) from the mother?s blood do not cross the placental barrier into the fetus? blood, nor does the plasma as such. In fact, if by some injury the mother?s and the fetus? blood mingle, health problems can later develop (Rh or ABO incompatibility). However, some substances from the plasma cross into the fetus? circulation. Do plasma proteins, such as immune globulin and albumin? Yes, some do.

    A pregnant woman has an active mechanism by which some immune globulin moves from the mother?s blood to the fetus?. Because this natural movement of antibodies into the fetus occurs in all pregnancies, babies are born with a degree of normal protective immunity to certain infections.

    It is similar with albumin, which doctors may prescribe as a treatment for shock or certain other conditions. Researchers have proved that albumin from the plasma is also transported, though less efficiently, across the placenta from a mother into her fetus.

    That some protein fractions from the plasma do move naturally into the blood system of another individual (the fetus) may be another consideration when a Christian is deciding whether he will accept immune globulin, albumin, or similar injections of plasma fractions. One person may feel that he in good conscience can; another may conclude that he cannot. Each must resolve the matter personally before God.

    [Footnotes]

    With recombinant DNA, or genetic-engineering, techniques, scientists are developing similar products that are not made from blood.

    One example is Rh immune globulin, which doctors may recommend when there is Rh incompatibility between a woman and her fetus. Another is Factor VIII, which is given to hemophiliacs.

    Evidence shows that nonblood volume replacement fluids (such as hetastarch [HES]) can be used effectively to treat shock and other conditions for which an albumin solution might have been used previously.

    WT 2000 6/15 P. 29

    Questions

    From Readers

    Do

    Jehovah?s Witnesses accept any medical products derived from blood?

    The fundamental answer is that Jehovah?s Witnesses do not accept blood. We firmly believe that God?s law on blood is not open to reform to fit shifting opinions. Still, new issues arise because blood can now be processed into four primary components and fractions of those components. In deciding whether to accept such, a Christian should look beyond possible medical benefits and risks. His concern should be what the Bible says and the potential effect on his relationship with Almighty God.

    The key issues are quite simple. As an aid to seeing why that is so, consider some Biblical, historical, and medical background.

    Jehovah God told our common ancestor Noah that blood must be treated as something special. (Genesis 9:3, 4) Later, God?s laws to Israel reflected the sacredness of blood: "As for any man of the house of Israel or some alien resident . . . who eats any sort of blood, I shall certainly set my face against the soul that is eating the blood." By rejecting God?s law, an Israelite could contaminate others; thus, God added: "I shall indeed cut him off from among his people." (Leviticus 17:10) Later, at a meeting in Jerusalem, the apostles and older men decreed that we must ?abstain from blood.? Doing so is as vital as abstaining from sexual immorality and idolatry.?Acts 15:28, 29.

    What would "abstaining" have meant back then? Christians did not consume blood, whether fresh or coagulated; nor did they eat meat from an unbled animal. Also ruled out would be foods to which blood was added, such as blood sausage. Taking in blood in any of those ways would violate God?s law.?1 Samuel 14:32, 33.

    Most people in ancient times would not have been troubled over the consuming of blood, as we can see from the writings of Tertullian (second and third centuries C.E.). Responding to false charges that Christians consumed blood, Tertullian mentioned tribes that sealed treaties by tasting blood. He also noted that "when a show is given in the arena, [some] with greedy thirst have caught the fresh blood of the guilty . . . as a cure for their epilepsy."

    Those practices (even if some Romans did them for health reasons) were wrong for Christians: "We do not include even animals? blood in our natural diet," wrote Tertullian. The Romans used food containing blood as a test of the integrity of real Christians. Tertullian added: "Now, I ask you, what sort of a thing is it, that when you are confident [that Christians] will turn with horror from animals? blood, you should suppose them greedy for human blood?"

    Today, few people would think that the laws of Almighty God are at issue if a physician suggested their taking blood. While Jehovah?s Witnesses certainly want to keep living, we are committed to obey Jehovah?s law on blood. What does this mean in the light of current medical practice?

    As transfusions of whole blood became common after World War II, Jehovah?s Witnesses saw that this was contrary to God?s law?and we still believe that. Yet, medicine has changed over time. Today, most transfusions are not of whole blood but of one of its primary components: (1) red cells; (2) white cells; (3) platelets; (4) plasma (serum), the fluid part. Depending on the condition of the patient, physicians might prescribe red cells, white cells, platelets, or plasma. Transfusing these major components allows a single unit of blood to be divided among more patients. Jehovah?s Witnesses hold that accepting whole blood or any of those four primary components violates God?s law. Significantly, keeping to this Bible-based position has protected them from many risks, including such diseases as hepatitis and AIDS that can be contracted from blood.

    However, since blood can be processed beyond those primary components, questions arise about fractions derived from the primary blood components. How are such fractions used, and what should a Christian consider when deciding on them?

    Blood is complex. Even the plasma?which is 90 percent water?carries scores of hormones, inorganic salts, enzymes, and nutrients, including minerals and sugar. Plasma also carries such proteins as albumin, clotting factors, and antibodies to fight diseases. Technicians isolate and use many plasma proteins. For example, clotting factor VIII has been given to hemophiliacs, who bleed easily. Or if someone is exposed to certain diseases, doctors might prescribe injections of gamma globulin, extracted from the blood plasma of people who already had immunity. Other plasma proteins are used medically, but the above mentioned illustrate how a primary blood component (plasma) may be processed to obtain fractions.

    Just as blood plasma can be a source of various fractions, the other primary components (red cells, white cells, platelets) can be processed to isolate smaller parts. For example, white blood cells may be a source of interferons and interleukins, used to treat some viral infections and cancers. Platelets can be processed to extract a wound-healing factor. And other medicines are coming along that involve (at least initially) extracts from blood components. Such therapies are not transfusions of those primary components; they usually involve parts or fractions thereof. Should Christians accept these fractions in medical treatment? We cannot say. The Bible does not give details, so a Christian must make his own conscientious decision before God.

    Some would refuse anything derived from blood (even fractions intended to provide temporary passive immunity). That is how they understand God?s command to ?abstain from blood.? They reason that his law to Israel required that blood removed from a creature be ?poured out on the ground.? (Deuteronomy 12:22-24) Why is that relevant? Well, to prepare gamma globulin, blood-based clotting factors, and so on, requires that blood be collected and processed. Hence, some Christians reject such products, just as they reject transfusions of whole blood or of its four primary components. Their sincere, conscientious stand should be respected.

    Other Christians decide differently. They too refuse transfusions of whole blood, red cells, white cells, platelets, or plasma. Yet, they might allow a physician to treat them with a fraction extracted from the primary components. Even here there may be differences. One Christian may accept a gamma globulin injection, but he may or may not agree to an injection containing something extracted from red or white cells. Overall, though, what might lead some Christians to conclude that they could accept blood fractions?

    "Questions From Readers" in The Watchtower of June 1, 1990, noted that plasma proteins (fractions) move from a pregnant woman?s blood to the separate blood system of her fetus. Thus a mother passes immunoglobulins to her child, providing valuable immunity. Separately, as a fetus? red cells complete their normal life span, their oxygen-carrying portion is processed. Some of it becomes bilirubin, which crosses the placenta to the mother and is eliminated with her body wastes. Some Christians may conclude that since blood fractions can pass to another person in this natural setting, they could accept a blood fraction derived from blood plasma or cells.

    Does the fact that opinions and conscientious decisions may differ mean that the issue is inconsequential? No. It is serious. Yet, there is a basic simplicity. The above material shows that Jehovah?s Witnesses refuse transfusions of both whole blood and its primary blood components. The Bible directs Christians to ?abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from fornication.? (Acts 15:29) Beyond that, when it comes to fractions of any of the primary components, each Christian, after careful and prayerful meditation, must conscientiously decide for himself.

    Many people would be willing to accept any therapy that seems to offer immediate benefit, even a therapy having known health risks, as is true of blood products. The sincere Christian endeavors to have a broader, more balanced view that involves more than just the physical aspects. Jehovah?s Witnesses appreciate efforts to provide quality medical care, and they weigh the risk/benefit ratio of any treatment. However, when it comes to products derived from blood, they carefully weigh what God says and their personal relationship with our Life-Giver.?Psalm 36:9.

    What a blessing for a Christian to have such confidence as the psalmist who wrote: "Jehovah God is a sun and a shield; favor and glory are what he gives. Jehovah himself will not hold back anything good from those walking in faultlessness. O Jehovah . . . , happy is the man that is trusting in you"!?Psalm 84:11, 12.

  • outnfree
    outnfree

    Rabbit,

    jgnat gave you lots of information and avishai made some good points, too, about the refusal of blood to save a life being stupid -- a lack of respect for "the gift of life", if you want to put it that way, because "the life IS in the blood".

    I just want to add the practical note that major blood surgery does not usually require the transfusion of blood AT ALL. I have had such surgery WHILE a practicing Witness, and my neurosurgeon and I thoroughly discussed this. I therefore agree that the best thing to do is to make YOUR wishes known both verbally and in written form to your physician and your wife and tell them that no family interference is to change their carrying out YOUR wishes.

    The www.ajwrb.org site is very helpful. Also, you may want to read through Ray Franz' In Search of Christian Freedom, in particular, the Chapter entitled "Blood and Life, Law and Love" because he reasons through the blood issue with full knowledge of the JW stance and with a Christian view to not offending/sinning against God, which seems as though it might still be important to you.

    Best wishes for a successful surgery. Mine was done about 6 years ago and I wish I hadn't waited as long as I did to finally feel almost normal again!

    outnfree

  • Rabbit
    Rabbit

    Shamus:

    Blood is considered an organ by the medical community. Always has been, always will be. The WTBTS says that you can accept organ transplants, so don't worry about it.

    Back when I was going, transplants were a 'no-no' when did this change ? Do you have any WT copies or ref's ? This is all for arguements sake -- if it comes up.

    One thing I will surely do is 'store' my own blood. I have a friend who had the same operation and ended up needing the 4 pints she stored, she was not JW...just worried about disease. Does any one have any WT ref's about why they think this way ?? I don't see the difference between that and the use of a heart/lung machine or kidney dialysis. Blood in, blood out.

    Everyone -- thanks for your respect and well wishes.... Lee

  • Rabbit
    Rabbit

    peacefulpete:

    Perhaps rereading Acts 15 would be helpful. The story goes that converts from the Pharisee camp were insisitng upon aspects of the Law to be retained, Paul's camp said not The solution posed was a compromise.

    Thanks pete, reading the context helped. Lately, when I read stuff I see them in a much different 'light' or angle than I did for 35 years

    jgnat:

    I helped my JW honey wade through the doublespeak, and he settled on allowing any fractionated blood products and blood substitutes such as Hemopure in order to save his life, but not whole blood or platelets. The WTBTS still disallows the practice of storing your own blood before surgery, but really, what is stopping YOU from doing that?
    A comprehensive site: http://www.ajwrb.org

    I have decided to store my own blood. In case any JW relatives show up, I am going to try to keep them out-of-the-loop on this issue, if I attract the attn. of elders, there are questions I don't want to answer (re-marrying) and no meetings for 4 years. (flying under their radar)

    Thank you for the articles, this is exactly what I am needing to make my decisions and my arguements, if it comes to that. I will check out that web-site, too.

    outnfree:

    Also, you may want to read through Ray Franz' In Search of Christian Freedom, in particular, the Chapter entitled "Blood and Life, Law and Love" because he reasons through the blood issue with full knowledge of the JW stance and with a Christian view to not offending/sinning against God, which seems as though it might still be important to you.
    Best wishes for a successful surgery. Mine was done about 6 years ago and I wish I hadn't waited as long as I did to finally feel almost normal again!

    Dear free: I'll check out that book, too. I still haven't gotten to read, "Crises of Conscience." This surgery has been a long time coming, I am ready for sure, I am going broke ! Thanks for the encouragement !

    To everyone: From the start of this, everybody has said, DECIDE what YOU want to do, if you feel more comfortable at a JW site that's OK...here's what the WT says and here's my opinion. That's what I like about this site...people encourage others to make up their own minds and are willing to freely give the opposing viewpoint as well. This is not the dogma common to the WT at all !

    Thank you !

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