How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?

by psyco 208 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  scholar

  Jeffro

  The Jews arrived in 538 BCE based on comparison of Ezra and Josephus. In any case there’s no basis for the dogmatic claim that it was 537 BCE

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  When one compares Ezra and Josephus the date 538 BCE fails as the timeframe is too narrow making such a computation impossible. The date 537 BCE accords well with all of the established evidence.

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  Attention to the Jews’ return world explicitly be given after Babylon’s 70 years had been fulfilled.

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  False. The Return of the Jews as Exiles ended the 70 years of Exile or in other words, the Return marked or ended the 70 years of Babylonian servitude.

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  Serving Babylon was explicitly the way to avoid exile.

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  Serving Babylon for 70 years as Exiles in Babylon constituted the Jewish Exile.

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  The Bible never mentions 70 years of exile.

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  The Bible describes the 70 years as an Exile- a period of Exile to or for Babylon, the place of Exile in or at Babylon, and the time frame of the Exile to Babylon.

  scholar JW

  
  
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  Splash

  Apologies for the formatting (posting on a tablet), but here’s the Insight confirming 587BCE. The important bit is in bold.

  We need to look at the timeline from the destruction of Jerusalem through to when Babylon was overthrown and the Jews allowed back home. Keep in mind that these dates are all BCE which means the higher the number, the further back in time it is.

  WT say this was from 607BCE until 539 BCE - approx 70 years. Scholars say this was from 587BCE until 539 BCE - approx 50 years.

  The one thing scholars and WT agree on is the date of 539 BCE which is when Babylon was overthrown and Cyrus gave his permission for the Jews to return to their homeland. This means we have to start at the agreed date and work backwards to find the starting point for when Jerusalem was destroyed.

  1. First you need to identify the list of kings from the decree of Cyrus (which gives us a fixed year in time - 539 BCE) back to the fall of Jerusalem. Insight Vol 1 p.425.

  2. Also establish that Cyrus gave his decree for the Jews to return at the same time, in 539 B.C.E. Insight Vol 2 p.332

  3. Now work through that list backwards in time and let's add how long each king reigns:

  - 539 BCE - The end of Belshazzars rule. Insight Vol 1 p.283-284

  - Minus Nabonidus rule (17 years) = 556 BCE - Insight Vol 2 p.457-458

  - Minus Labashi-Marduk (9 months) = 557 BCE - W65 1/1 p.29

  - Minus Neriglissar (4 years) = 561 BCE - Insight Vol 1 p.453

  - Minus Evil-Merodach (2 years) = 563 BCE - Insight Vol 1 p.773

  - Minus Nebuchadnezzar (43 years) = 606 BCE - Insight Vol 2 p.480

  - This gives us 606 BCE as the start of Nebuchadnezzar's reign (from 606 BCE to 563 BCE), but it was in 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign that Jerusalem fell, so one more sum:

  - ADD 19 years to 606 BCE = 587 BCE - Insight Vol 1 p. 447

  Apart from Labashi-Marduk, all the kings details are in the Insight books, so it's pretty easy to work out. What does get confusing is that the Insight book also uses their own, fictitious dates all the way through, but going by this factual list of kings and dates you can prove the Insight books contradict themselves and the 587 BCE date is proven correct.

  Look, all JW's can go to any encyclopedia and prove that Jesus Christ was not born on December 25th. This is the line often used by Jehovah's Witnesses to point out that Christmas is NOT a Christian holiday. Yet, those same encyclopedia's are not trusted when it comes to the date of Jerusalem's desolation because they all disagree with the Watchtower's date of 607 B.C.E.

  WT repeatedly state that no scholars accept the 607 BCE date. The old AID book said on p.322-348 "These dates are some 20 years later than those presented in the chart accompanying this article ... This is because we accept the Biblical information, particularly as regards the seventy-year desolation of Judah (running from 607 to 537 B.C.E.), as accurate and as superior in reliability to the ancient secular records."

  Even in WT's two article defence of 607 BCE in Oct/Nov 2011 they add the footnote: "Note: None of the secular experts quoted in this article hold that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.E."

  
  
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  scholar

  Splash

  Your methodology is flawed as it does not account for the biblical-historical period of the 70 years which is unaccounted for in the scheme of NB Period which you have taken from the Insight volumes. When you factor in the 70 years it shows that there is a 20-year gap or difference between the Neo Babylonian Period and the Late Judean Monarchic Period which fully accounts for or proves 607 BCE for the Fall of Jerusalem.

  scholar JW
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  Jeffro

  Fisherman:

  https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6597071495233536/how-debunk-1914-calculus-only-using-jw-publications#6304936434860032
  

  [The Bible] does [mention 70 years of exile].

  Wow. Even more of an outright liar than ‘scholar’.
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  scholar

  Jeffro

  • Wow. Even more of an outright liar than ‘scholar’.

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    It is just like this: The Bible nowhere has the expression 'Babylonian domination or servitude'.

    You got it?

    scholar JW
    
    

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  MeanMrMustard

  Aannnnnnddd again - Jerimiah is clear. It's 70 years of servitude, for the nations of the region, to Babylon.

  That is the definition of the 70 years according to Jerimiah. Priper "exegesis" takes into account grammar.
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  Alethia

  Hi Guys, first post this forum. Im a newly awakened brother trying to find my way out of the organisation and towards the real truth.

  Watchtower Online library has the reign of each Babylonian King and counting backwards indicates that Nebuchadnezzarr reign began in 605BCE.

  The below article is also very useful. Page 7 lists the reign of each King according to cuneiform tablets. This is undeniable proof.

  https://jwstudies.com/Critique_of_When_Was_Ancient_Jerusalem_Destroyed.pdf

  Scholar, can you provide some evidence for the missing 20 years?
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  scholar

  MeanMrMustard

  Aannnnnnddd again - Jerimiah is clear. It's 70 years of servitude, for the nations of the region, to Babylon.

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  Jeremiah is very clear and so is Ezra, Daniel, Zechariah and Josephus in that the 70 years was a definite historic period of EXILE + SERVITUDE +DESOLATION

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  • That is the definition of the 70 years according to Jerimiah. Priper "exegesis" takes into account grammar.

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    Exegesis proves that the 70 years was a period of Exile, a period of Servitude and a period whence the Land of Judah was desolate.

    scholar JW

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  scholar

  Alethia

  holar, can you provide some evidence for the missing 20 years?

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  The missing 20 years is shown when one compares Bible Chronology with NB Chronology or secular Chronology. For example, using the calculated date for the Fall of Jerusalem under Nebuchadnezzer you can calculate two different dates: 586/7 BCE or 607 BCE depending on the different methodology.

  scholar JW
  
  
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  Fisherman

  It is just like this: The Bible nowhere has the expression 'Babylonian domination or servitude'.

  It refers to the land as a desolate waste…jackals.

  Psalms 137:3-5,8 — For there our captors asked us for a song, Those mocking us wanted amusement: “Sing for us one of the songs of Zion.” 4 How can we sing the song of Jehovah On foreign soil? 5 If I should forget you, O Jerusalem, Let my right hand be forgetful. 8 O daughter of Babylon, who are to be despoiled, Happy will he be that rewards you With your own treatment with which you treated us.