What Does Secular History Tell Us About the Twelve Apostles? - From National Geographic.

by fulltimestudent 22 Replies latest jw friends

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  john.prestor

  I haven't watched the video but I've read through and heard a ton of these apologetic arguments during my time as a fundamentalist Baptist. They're not convincing, there's no tomb attested to before the 4th century when Constantine's crazy mother went to Jerusalem and found everything from Jesus' cross to John the Baptist's sandals (kidding about the last one).

  Did early apostles claim Jesus was resurrected? They did. Why did they claim he was resurrected? Because by reading into Old Testament scriptures through an allegorical lens they reached that conclusion, read the first couple chapters of Hebrews for example. There is very little evidence of a historical Jesus (Josephus was tampered with probably by the church father Eusebius in the 4th century, I can go into more detail) or any historical 12 (a late legend given away by numerous lines of evidencs I can also go into, the twelve play next to no role in the earliest gospel Mark or any other, most are just names on a page, and there's enough of their bones floating around to build a Brontosaurus).

  I've read on this stuff for years, and trust me: I wanted to believe it. It's not believable.
• 

  Perry

  

  Merry Christmas Everyone!

  

  This is the list of Minimum Facts that Professor Habermas states that most skeptic scholars will allow. (university level and not basement bloggers)

  The criteria for evidence they (the skeptic scholars) demand is far higher than for any other historical figure or event. But even using this unrealistic standard, you can still get to these 12.

  This obviously includes the historicity of some of the apostles as well.
  
  
  
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  smiddy3

  A nice family photo Perry ,but how come your kids are dressed like good JW kids ,however you and your wife are in casual clothes ?

  Never mind

  Merry Xmas to you and your family.from a non religious person.

  smiddy3
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  Perry

  School clothes Smiddy. One of their dress-up days.
  
  I'm surprised that more people don't post more family pictures. 17 years ago when I joined this forum, I decided to use my real name and photo as my avatar. Best decision I ever made. Although I left for reasons of conscience (generation doctrine), I got shunned anyway. I guess sending my elder-appointed brothers and father a simultaneous letter outlining the crimes of the Watchtower didn't help.

  I never experienced the power and blessing of God until I confessed him publicly to my family.... apart from the Watchtower.
  
  While I was 40 yrs. old & single at the time, by the grace of God - they were replaced. I also have strong reason to believe that although I was denied being able to visit with my mom in her last few days, she may have experienced a death-bed conversion and accepted Jesus as her personal Savior.
  
  
  
  
  
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  john.prestor

  Perry: no, you can't. Those are all based on whether or not you accept the gospels and some other New Testament texts as true... which I don't. I've been around and around in circles with apologists before on this site and you've already taken the thread far off track, so, peace out.
• 

  Perry

  Hi John,

  You already stated that you are not familiar with the minimal facts argument. None of the 12 points above rely on the gospels. The world's top atheist / agnostic NT scholars allow for several other books of the NT to be genuine. Using these data... the resurrection happened.
  
  These facts can be determined using critical scholars own allowances, which are extremely minimal......hence the term "Minimal Facts Argument."
  
  The books that the critical scholars allow, together with their embedded creed statements, take us back to within a year or two of the Crucifixion.
  
  Does this surprise you?
  
  The questions these minimal facts generate are endless if the resurrection did not happen; making it more likely than not from an evidence standpoint.

  The bottom line is: The evidence is overwhelming when compared to what we have for other historical figures and events. This lecture explains.
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5znVUFHqO4Q
  
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  StephaneLaliberte

  I downloaded the audio book and I'm listening to it while cleaning up my place. Very interesting! Thanks for the link!
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  john.prestor

  Perry, your claims are bunk and so are Habermas's. I'm not surprised by anything you said, I've heard it all before in one form or another during the 16 years my family raised me as a fundamentalist. It didn't convince me then, it doesn't convince me now. Please stop proselytizing on this forum.
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  Perry

  John,

  Are you feeling ok? First you say that you never heard of the Minimal Facts argument and now you say that you "heard it all before".
  
  Is there something specific from Professor Habermas argument that you found to be false?

  Looks to be pretty sound scholarship to me.
  
  P.S. So were you never a JW? ....just fundamentalist Baptist? Please explain.

  Also, are you a mythisist (believing that JESUS never existed)?

  Thanks
• 

  smiddy3

  If God/ Jehovah was so forthcoming in giving revelations and visions about his purposes 2000 years ago during and after Jesus presence on earth ,why is he so silent now since we are supposed to be living in the time of the end ?

  Isnt this the time he should be communicating with his faithful servants now ?

  Especially now with all of the modern technologies of communication we have now.

  Jehovah`s Witnesses are a joke with all of their failed expectations in their 140 odd years of claiming to be his only channel of communication.