God & universe #1 - God's position and authority

by Anders Andersen 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Anders Andersen

  @WannabeHammer ;-)

  Yes I know. A real, specific, non-physical, spiritual place called the heavens.
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  David_Jay

  Memphis,

  I was only speaking about what Judaism has to say about itself. I personally have no investment or interest.
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  prologos

  I am looking at the possible "spiritual" domain in the sense only what the physicists. have come up with. The "spirit realm" could be considered void of material, without "things", nothing . When reading works like " Universe out of Nothing" , amazingly, it turns out, there is no real nothing. Instead, the void, considered before the big bsng, outside the universe, or emerging inside the ever faster expanding universe, is said to be possessing energy. It is this "dark" energy that is said to fuel the acceleration. who is to say, that this phenomenon in the non-material void is not an indication of possible guided activity? possibilities.
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  Mephis

  • I was only speaking about what Judaism has to say about itself. I personally have no investment or interest.

    Hey David,

    I genuinely find it interesting how religions tell stories about their origins. The rabbinic traditions of Judaism, and the interpretation built up on that, are fascinating. But they are a few centuries of development and interpretation away from the basic texts. It shouldn't surprise us that there was a time where JWs were taught that God had a physical location at which he could be invisibly found (the Pleiades according to the WT), because that's a pretty simple step to take if you're reading bronze age texts literally. At one time the Jews also placed God in a physical space they could point to in the sky. God changing the weather to make sure that your new bible version is printed on time? One could only make it more bronze age if one were talking about one's crops.

    JW theology is missing some 1800 years of christian theological discussion and some 600 years of Jewish which led into christianity. If it seems overly similar with bronze age conceptions of god and heaven and cosmic forces, then that's the point. It's a religion stripped of subtlety and nuance in such ideas. God is in an invisible heaven with a court of angels because that's what the OT says. And the OT says that because 3000 years ago that's how God was imagined. Satan has to be a divine actor for the same reasons Satan became a divine actor in the first place - God's a bit too much of an unstable tyrant without evil sub-let to another being. A bronze age patriarchal 'theocratic' arrangement has many issues which most other religions are slowly questioning, but JWs are keen to try and push it as acceptable. etc etc. In fact, one of the few things JWs don't do which would be typical of bronze age religion is ritual blood magic. And I'm not sure I can even say they don't do that...

    For anyone interested in origins of Judaism and links to Canaanite religion, Noll wrote an overview/101 article on the subject which is well sourced. Obviously believers and the pious will find much to object to within it but it's very mainstream for secular teaching: http://people.brandonu.ca/nollk/canaanite-religion/
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  David_Jay

  Mephis,

  This is not new information to me. I learned it in elementary school during the 1970s. My parents, unlike the rest of my family, were Catholic, and details like this fine academic you mention are basic to Catholic Bibles in the footnotes.

  It is also taught in the intermediate level of Hebrew School to children. We Jews know much of our religion and culture comes from the world which we sprang. Passover, for instance, is well-known in Jewish culture for being pre-Exodus.

  The problem is that JWs teach a literal interpretation of the Scripture which does not match the understanding of Jews and those in Christendom. It may be "new" and "shattering" to exJWs, but it was the stuff of primary education for someone like me who went to religious private schools.
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  Mephis

  David,

  Brilliant that this is not new stuff for you and you got to do it in primary school. Most of us get to do it at university sadly. Big words and things. Although if you think knowing Passover is Pre-Exodus is what it's about, you know a lot less than you think... need to locate an Exodus to have a pre-Exodus. As I said, stories religions tell about their origins. May not find too much of it in the Catholic bibles of the mid-70s though. Perhaps you meant peer reviewed journals of the mid-70s instead? Which you were reading in elementary school, natch.

  Would you mind stopping confusing rabbinic Judaism and your understanding (?) of that with the bronze age fudge JWs take their theology from then, as you are ever so educated on this subject? I'm surprised you're confusing the two and it needs to be pointed out to you from how you try to boost yourself :)

  .
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  Anders Andersen

  @mephis,

  Thanks for the link about the Canaanite religions. Very interesting read.

  Especially the part about Canaanite gods of war requiring human sacrifices...you know just like Jahweh demanding all citizens of enemy cities be put to death since they belonged to him (=human sacrifice) :-(
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  Mephis

  Yeah, it's a good 101 essay introducing where scholarship and archaeology are broadly at. Would obviously be wrong not to mention that fundies of both Christian and Jewish varieties disagree with the interpretation set out there. But then they would, wouldn't they? ;) The human sacrifice aspect seems to crop up elsewhere in the OT, although one is never sure whether it's meant metaphorically or literally - possibly due to the efforts of later scribes wanting to create an artificial distinction.

  Linking back to your OP though, that's the bedrock on which JWs are building their view of YHWH. It's literal in a nonsensical fashion. Judaism has built up shades of nuance and meaning to explain it away. Christianity (mainly) handwaves it away by focus on the NT. But JWs are having a full bronze age carnival of stupid, and a lot of the silliness in their doctrine stems from trying to make sense of things which only ever made sense in the bronze age and very early iron age. I'm of an age to remember specific illnesses (eg mental health issues) being linked to just how much you were praying. Satan will get you if you don't keep up your rituals of meeting attendance, study and prayer. etc etc.

  Hope that's not too much of a tangent. But that's how I see JWs and how they frame a belief in God etc.