by Happythoughts 59 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
That's the problem with the JW religion..... always looking for a payoff -- no joy in the journey.
my mom always told me why be happy now? when you can be happy in the new system of things. how messed up is that line of thinking?
i don't think i serve a god so i think i won't answer that question since it is moot for me.
melissa
Even if I the bible god existed, and rewarded those who serve him, I wouldn't do it. Might does not make right. Even if I believed his threat to eternally torture those who don't kow-tow to his arbitrary demands, I like to think I wouldn't buckle.
I thought alot about this when I first became a dub...............hearing all the 'aged', 'in good standing', zealous' dubs say that even if there was no reward they would continue to serve god out of love for him!
I thought...............'what a loud of sh@#'
Now I would say that the only thing I serve is my conscience. I've had religious groups tell me 'if you do this, god will reward you with that.' But they protect pedophiles, cover up lies and are hypocrits, and they expected me to go against my conscience. On the other hand my conscience tells me to be kind, honest, loving, patient, tolerant, protective, gentle, etc, etc! And the rewards are that I sleep well at night in the knowledge that I have done my best and I am surrounded by very special people who share in my life. Those are real rewards, here and now!
Cheers, Bliss
That Crumbum doesn't deserve to make my acquaintance if He can't love a person for who they are, and not for what they believe.
Ash, That's just my point. I do believe God loves you in such a way that your beliefs don't affect that love.
I used to think that "if only I did x" (and x would always be replaced by something new) God would finally look on me with total love. I'll have finally earned it.
Somehow I finally realized that God wouldn't love me more, because He actually loved me to the full right now. Even if I did my hardest to give HIm the message that I hated Him, or ended up being a mass-murderer, God does love me right now--even as He fully knows every awful thing I might do in my future.
GOD DOES NOT LOVE A PERSON FOR WHATEVER DOCTRINES THEY DO OR DON'T BELIEVE. In that case, He'd have done away with the lot of us a very long time ago! GOD DOES NOT CONDEMN PEOPLE FOR BEING IN OR NOT IN A PARTICULAR GROUP OR CHURCH, OR ANY CHURCH, FOR THAT MATTER. God didn't just make a lot of people to blow up. If I believed this, I'd feel mighty anxious.
If you care, really care about righteousness, then you've nothing to worry about! If your heart is sensitive to doing whatever is right, then God can work with you: He can make you feel uncomfortable when you realize that there is deceit and coverup, and you move on to a new place. When you see something that is good (and not just surface-deep good), you move toward it. It's not arriving at a certain spot that's the big deal--it's whether you've hardened your heart to everything good. Usually, we harden our hearts because we settle for our own standards, and refuse to consider anything higher.
I say that God is, and He is good. Even the gospel message gets boiled down to that:
1JN 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
If we walk in the light, God takes care of the rest.
Sorry I can't agree with you about the Bible. Though I'm sure you've been reading unbiased reports...
Gently: I don't use candles and incense, etc. ( I don't think heaven will be candles and incense either.) Music is nice, but not required. God has already well-established Himself as Reality for me, so I don't need these things to get into a particular mood or frame of mind.
AND FINALLY. I think all of you might find the research of Lawrence Kohlberg interesting, if nothing else. It is about moral development; the moral stages and levels that people go thru. Here's a simple article about it: http://www.indiana.edu/~koertge/Sem104/Kohlberg.html. It does show that behavior can be motivated by things beyond simple punishments and rewards.
It is an extremely interesting subject.
Right now, as I type this and as you read this, a child is being brutalized.
Sure there's a god
I think it's interesting that your avatar, which is very nice btw, shows such a happy face, despite the fact that you know that right this very minute, a child is being brutalized... and it could be said that at any given minute, even when that photo was taken, it was the same.
How could a supposedly caring person smile ever again?...
bebu
Has anyone here ever read The Brothers Karamazov? There is a very impassioned scene between Ivan and his brother, Alyosha (a young, innocent orthodox seminarian). Ivan is an intellectual struggling with the absence of God and the problem of pain. He tells a story that reveals how he views the (im)morality of God. It is quite moving.
I think you will enjoy reading it--not because it "proves" anything for me, but because it is the classic expression of the turmoil mankind experiences in having faith in God. It is also one of the greatest stories I've ever read. (The author, Fyodor Dostoyevski, by the way, was a Christian. His book Crime and Punishment is also amazing! Some recommendations, anyway, if anyone has a life offline still!)
Some of it gets long, but hang in there. It's quite rewarding.
http://www.online-literature.com/dostoevsky/brothers_karamazov/35
http://www.online-literature.com/dostoevsky/brothers_karamazov/36/
bebu
If I knew there was no reward for serving God, I am sure I would still serve him.
Didn't Peter ask Jesus,"What's in for us Lord,we gave up all things to follow you".Peter was looking for something for following Jesus.
So, its natural to expect something in return for giving up something for it.What would be the pupose in serving anyone if not to be rewarded for it.
There is no free lunch,and ,no one works for free,not even Jesus,not even God,He too expects something out of it,for serving man with his giving of things,He expect Worship.Why else would He work to create things for man if He did not want a reward for all he has done,His reward is the Worship He receives from mankind.
So,my answer to your question is an honest,NO!
Blueblades
A very interesting answer, Blueblades!! I like the honesty, though I think the reason God is to be worshiped is not because of His desparate need of reward.
I am looking at the question, "If you knew there was no reward" and see that it has as much trouble/potential as "If you knew there was a reward...".
If you knew there was a reward, would you serve God?
If you answer 'yes' to that question, then you could be scoffed at as a mercenary believer.
If you answer 'no' to that question, you can enjoy being the captain of your own ship as it sinks.
The fact is.... We don't "know" by science, we just "know" by faith or by suspicions or intuitions. We're all stuck having to decide what we will do without getting heaven physically dangled in front of our noses. And when trials and suffering come, we have to evaluate why we will or won't take a certain course of action. Who we become is reflected in the reasons we make our decisions.
Kohlberg's levels and stages of morality is a decent basic construct for examining some of this from a psychological point of view. But when you are in tears over a senseless loss, psychology isn't much comfort. You are thinking of something deeper, if indeed you can think.
bebu
