Godlike ones vs. the godlike ones?

I_love_Jeff

NWT: Psalm 8:5 * Hebrew: 2:7: “You made him a little lower than angels.”
If men are called "godlike ones", according to Jehovah's Witnesses, how, then, are they a little lower than the angels also called the "godlike ones"
Psalm 82:6 “I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods*, And all of YOU are sons of the Most High.

*Or, “godlike ones.” Heb., ʼelo·him′; Gr., the·oi′; Syr., daʼ·la·hin; Lat., di′i; T, “like angels.”
****Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible are human beings referred to the word "Elohim". "Godlike" in Hebrew is termed "כמו אלוהים"

Tenacious

This argument is a favorite used by JW's to try and reduce Jesus to a mere angel.

Not long ago I had a back-and-forth with a JW on YT about this.

It's sad but they are spitting on their Savior all over again.

Wonderment

I_love_Jeff says: "Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible are human beings referred to the word "Elohim."

Not true!

In Exodus 4.16, Moses is presented serving as "God" (lê·lō·hîm) to Aaron.

In Exodus 7.1, Moses made "God," or "a god" (’ĕ·lō·hîm) to Pharaoh.

Psalm 45:6, Solomon is addressed as "God (Heb.: ’ĕ·lō·hîm; Greek: ho theós)": “Your throne God forever and ever.” This text was quoted in Hebrews 1.8, applied to Jesus Christ.

At Psalm 82.6, human judges are referred to as "gods (’ĕ·lō·hîm)."

And in the Greek Scriptures:

At John 10.34, Jesus quotes Psalm 82.6 confirming the above: W. E. Vine wrote: “The word [theos] is used of divinely appointed judges in Israel, as representing God in His authority, John 10:34, quoted from Ps. 82:6….” (An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)

At Acts 12.22, Herod's speech led some to shout: “This is the voice of a god [theou'], not of a man.”

At Acts 14.11, Paul was called by the crowds one of "the gods [hoi' theoi']" when he made a miracle.

At Acts 28.6, Paul was called "a god [theón]" when he survived a deadly viper bite.

As to the term, "godlike ones," it need not be narrow in meaning, since not everyone in heaven has the same status or position. Humans too can be termed "godlike ones*" when they act in representation of God, as Vine noted. Of course, not all humans serve as God's representatives. (*See note on Psalm 82.6, in NWT 2013, TANAK, and NIrV)

I_love_Jeff

@Wonderment-

In Exodus 4.16, Moses is presented serving as "God" (lê·lō·hîm) to Aaron. SIMILE- Moses is not being called A GOD

In Exodus 7.1, Moses made "God," or "a god" (’ĕ·lō·hîm) to Pharaoh. SIMILE- Moses is not being called A GOD

Psalm 45:6, Solomon is addressed as "God (Heb.: ’ĕ·lō·hîm; Greek: ho theós)": “Your throne God forever and ever.” This text was quoted in Hebrews 1.8, applied to Jesus Christ.The king is addressed as God’s representative........Watchtower Library states: (Psalm 45:6) God is your throne to time indefinite, even forever; The scepter of your kingship is a scepter of uprightness.

At Psalm 82.6, human judges are referred to as "gods (’ĕ·lō·hîm)." Psalm 82:7 according to THIS simile the gods mentioned in this chapter are IMMORTAL

I mentioned the HEBREW BIBLE not the New Testament. Human beings mentioned in the Hebrew Bible are not MADE INTO gods but ONLY AS REPRESENTATIVES.

Representatives VS created as gods are two different things thus Psalm 8:5 makes humans mere humans with godlike qualities NOT IMMORTAL like Psalm 82:7

peacefulpete

This Psalm like quite a few others preserve the polytheistic/henotheistic roots of Judaism. The verse is saying exactly what it appears at straightforward reading. Humans were created a little lower than the gods. The Jews before the time of the LXX glossed passages like this to mean angels(or some other creative solution) to revise their past. And no this is not a nutter comment.

Wonderment

@ I_love_Jeff,

At Psalm 82.6, human judges are referred to as "gods (’ĕ·lō·hîm)." Psalm 82:7 according to THIS simile the gods mentioned in this chapter are IMMORTAL
I mentioned the HEBREW BIBLE not the New Testament. Human beings mentioned in the Hebrew Bible are not MADE INTO gods but ONLY AS REPRESENTATIVES.
Representatives VS created as gods are two different things thus Psalm 8:5 makes humans mere humans with godlike qualities NOT IMMORTAL like Psalm 82:7.

At Psalm 82.6, human judges are referred to as "gods (’ĕ·lō·hîm)." Psalm 82:7 according to THIS simile the gods mentioned in this chapter are IMMORTAL

I think you meant these gods (human judges) are mortal. No?

I mentioned the HEBREW BIBLE not the New Testament. Human beings mentioned in the Hebrew Bible are not MADE INTO gods but ONLY AS REPRESENTATIVES.

Yes, but, Ex. 7.1 says, "See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh." (KJV) So, in a biblical sense God made Moses a god before Pharaoh. True, as a his representative, but nevertheless referenced as "a god."

I think you missed the whole point, which is:

In the Bible, besides Jehovah and Jesus named "gods" of some sort, other individuals were also called "gods." This indicates that the term "god in Scripture goes beyond being used as only the description of almighty God." Satan is called "the god of this world." Therefore, rather than taking issue of whether a god is true, false, or mortal, like Evangelicals are fond of doing, and restricting the sense of "god" to the Supreme God, as Evangelicals tend to do, the Bible goes further by adding a few nuances as you yourself noted.The interpretation of these can be debated, if you will.

Including this one at 1 Kings 18.27 where Elijah said that Ba'al was "a god [Heb. elohim; Greek: theós]." Thus, the Bible supports the view that there are many [so-called] "gods" and "lords" in the world, not only one. (1 Cor. 8.5) In the end, Paul tells us in the next verse, that there is but one true universal God. Can we agree to that?

peacefulpete

A relevant parallel is exposed through the lucky preservation of a doublet.

Ps 29:1,2: 1 Ascribe to Yahweh, you sons of gods,
ascribe to Yahweh glory and strength.
2 Ascribe to Yahweh the glory due his name;
worship Yahweh in the splendor of his holiness.

At some point a scribe felt discomfort with this verse suggesting there were other gods and so revised it as was collected at Ps 96:7-9

7 Ascribe to Yahweh, all you families of nations,
ascribe to Yahweh glory and strength.
8 Ascribe to Yahweh the glory due his name;
bring an offering and come into his courts.
9 Worship Yahweh in the splendor of his holiness

Note the author also slipped in a reference to offerings at the courts of the temple, likely the author was a priest.

I_love_Jeff

@Wonderment If this were a free in-home Bible study, we could start talking about who IS or who IS NOT the one, true Jehovah God, our Grand Creator. The Witnesses are more than happy to point out that an Elohim like Ba'al is "a god" in the same sense that Jesus/Michael is also "a god". It really doesn't matter a whole lot whether a human or a spirit being is considered to be "a god" (as the NWT states at John 1:1). The key is that if you are "a god" in the Spirit World, that makes you Elohim. If you are "a god" in the physical realm, that means that you are NOT Elohim. The concept is simple. A human can be appointed "as" Elohim, or can be said to be Elohim-like, but if you are a human, you CANNOT be a member of the Spirit World with the exception of Jesus who visited the apostles and allowed Thomas to touch his wound. The resurrected Jesus had a solid foot in both worlds, but that would be the only exception. Of course, as you know, the Witnesses say that Jesus' body dissolved, but that's another story for another time. If you want to hear evidence of how Angels of God were put in charge of the Nations, click this link for further information Angels of God (Watchtower of Babel Channel). These are the dudes who are mentioned in Psalm 82 (not human judges). The Targum shows how both terms "Angels of God" and "Sons of Israel" appeared together at one point and then the angels were eliminated altogether in the Masoretic text. Thanks for the interesting discussion, friend.

I_love_Jeff

Oh, and BTW, I think it would be fun to blow your mind with a short talk about who Almighty God actually is (which changes) through the ages. About every 2000 years, God is replaced by a new God as the "astrological ages" change. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrological_age

For example, you can remember the worshiping of the golden calf, and how Moshu was pissed off, right? Well, THAT version of God represented the constellation Taurus, the bull. However, at that time, the reason the people were not to worship THAT God was because the Ram (Aries) was the new God in town. Then, in about 2000 more years, Jesus became the new God because that was the Age of Pisces! Now we are in or close to being in the Age of Aquarius (like the song in the musical "Hair"). A new God emerges. Can we agree on THIS?

Simon

Can we agree on THIS?

No.

PS. Using the bible to prove the bible is unconvincing.

Godlike ones vs. the godlike ones?

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