I have a feeling that they as individuals are afraid to leave as any of us were. The immediate consequences are great, especially for them.
How do big guys at Brooklyn benefit from six million followers?
by micheal 20 Replies latest jw friends
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DJ
I tend to think that they are blind. If they ever have doubts, it probably frightens them and they ask themselves....."where shall I go away to?" I think they live in fear.
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jst2laws
Hello Mystery
I believe I have read on some of the threads that there are Bethelites on the forum. What is your perspective on this? Do the Leaders live at Bethel? Or do they drive to work everyday? Is it power? prestige? money?
Who has been there and seen it up close?I have commented on this in the past but my experience does not fit what most would like to hear. So I will do what I did for 35 years and go along, keep quiet, say what is expected of me so as to protect my friendships. NOT!
The GB that finally took over the WT presidency was made up of Knorr appointees who finally got some guts and took a stand. That stand was based on what they (most at least) really believed to be God's will. The Aid Book had revealed years before that their was no scriptural bases for a presidential authority in the Christian theocracy. During the period of 1972 to 1975 events at Bethel prompted GB discussions that came to a head with the GB finally taking on N. H. Knorr and Fred Franz. The authority they used to do so was their understanding of the scriptures. THEY REALLY BELIEVED IT WAS THE WILL OF GOD TO REORGANIZE THE POWER STRUCTURE OF THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY. Even Knorr and Franz went along reluctantly. Knowing nearly every member of the GB at that time I believe they really were sincere in what they did.
Just 5 years later they turned paranoid just as Luther and Calvin and the revolutionary theocrats became anti-revolution. So much has happened since then I too wonder how much they know now. I suspect a few, TJ and his boys especially, may have come to the realization that they are now desperately propping up a shame. They rest are so old ....they are doing good to remember their own name. These are not part of a fine tuned conspiracy to maintain power.
Sure, there must be some who know the truth and do not care who they hurt. But in my experience, their were nun. Amazingly sincere, even more amazingly duped, is the way I would describe them.
But then as Rochetman said: "I did see what human pride and desire to maintain position can do." As brought out power corrupts. I have not paid close attention to the GB since the 1980's but suspect sincerity of the 1970's could have become corrupted by the desire to "maintain position".
Jst2laws
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Mystery
If they actually learned the real truth, they still couldn't leave.
I had never thought of that. Where would they go? What would they do? As Xena said "If they get all that can you just imagine how good the governing body has it?" They have no one except each other.
We know how we feel when we are shunned, could you imagine coming down from the highs as SaintSatan said to the gutter. They are caught in a web of their own device. As Jst2alws put it, "TJ and his boys especially, may have come to the realization that they are now desperately propping up a shame."
Never thought of it from this perspecive.
I am feeling better and better every day rearding my decision. -
avengers
THEY REALLY BELIEVED IT WAS THE WILL OF GOD TO REORGANIZE THE POWER STRUCTURE OF THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY.
Let me quote the words of the GB themselves written in the book: "The Truth that leads to Eternal Life". (Dutch version, so I have to translate into English pg 14)
"The person who wants to please God, has to be upright.
But uprightness alone does not make that their religion is approved in God's eyes".( I tried to translate it the best I could. The way they say it, is just weird. Maybe the Dutch posters can supply a better translation,
or maybe someone has an English version. Correct me if I'm not accurate enough in my translation)So according to their own words it doesn't matter how upright you are.
God's Will? When we look at the fruits of these "upright" men, we see ruined families, deadly doctrines, shares in questionable stocks, they slept with the Scarlet-colored Wild Beast, which makes the WT a whore, 23000 pedophiles on file, etc, etc.
I wonder if these "upright" men are really so upright. Their eyes and ears must really be smeared shut with a smelly substance.
In other words , I smell a rat.
Andy
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integ
If you notice in Ray Franz's C OF C, He says he just lived in a small apartment at Bethel. He had hais basic needs cared for, but no retirement account or anything. So the comment that they are flthy rich is in error i think. He says in the book he got sent ten thousand dollars when he left for Georgia...Not exactly retirement income. Let's just stick to the facts..There is plenty of other stuff to rip these bastards on. It must be the POWER they are into.
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JT
If you notice in Ray Franz's C OF C, He says he just lived in a small apartment at Bethel. He had hais basic needs cared for, but no retirement account or anything. So the comment that they are flthy rich is in error i think. He says in the book he got sent ten thousand dollars when he left for Georgia...Not exactly retirement income. Let's just stick to the facts..There is plenty of other stuff to rip these bastards on. It must be the POWER they are into
you are correct, the big boys don't benifit from the $951 Millions dollars they take in each year in the manner that most would assume, Homes, Yachts, summer homes, rolex watches, etc- when you compare most big time preachers they LIVE LARGE ---
The guy who lives down by me he has only 24, 000 members and he has 2 Rolls Royces and flies a LEAR JET , diamond crusted watches and cufflinks and his suits LAY ON HIM- the whole nine yards
while the big boys benifit from the goodies of the friends--- they usually don't have DIRECT ACCESS TO THE CASH-
unlike other big time preachers if they QUIT their religion today they have plenty of cash stashed here and there, but the big boys if they got DFed today would be Sh!T up creek instead of having a nice nest egg.
so that creates a tremendous dependency on the org to stay- my old roommate has moved up the corp ladder and he has admitted all the time that the org has alot of bogus rules, yet he tells me
"James---- Why Bite the Hand the Feeds you"-
One of the things that wt carefully did was wrote their by laws in a manner that no one person controls the cash, instead everything is by committee- and now with 5 new corps and everyone is looking to BROWN NOSE and take someones elses place, anyone who would suggest trying to pull something off, would be turned in and the person would feel that they would be recommended for that position for being SO LOYAL TO THE ORG
Some times I don't think many poster have ANY IDEA OF HOW LOYAL TO THE ORG these guy are by the time they reach the level that they are at and i'm not just talking about GB, but major players in the org- take a look at this list below , these men didn't get to this level by showing any signs of not following orders-
so yes they do get lots of goodies, but in proportion to the amount of cash they take in they don't get "Jack"
i recall guys who worked in the offices would be so stingy as if the money was coming out of their pockets
some of you may know this guy a bethel heavy David Sinclair, his office was right next to Ted Jaraz when they were in brooklyn, he drove an older car, even though he could have access to the New Buicks in the garage, he drove this older car, don't even think it had AC, he dress modestly, but this guy served as a Zone Overseer and was one of the most powerful guys around-
another guy who worked down the hall from him was Malencant, he was a single guy about 50 , yet he was a power broker to the max, while some bethel heavies were flashy like JR Brown who drives around in a Q45 on $90.00 a month- go figure-- he and larry gramham are ACE BUDDIES--
FOR THE MOST PART lots of the heavies just LOVE THE POWER AND CONTROL THEY HAVE-
IN my exp the wealthest guy at bethel ( who at least flashed his cash) was Grant Suitor- he let you know he had cash, but in terms of dipping in the money like the house they had out in CAlifornia or the 12 cylinder Caddies-- those days are over with-
in my personal exp IT IS THE POWER, MUCH MORE SO THAN THE MONEY
in fact it starts out for the Male JW just like that, look back in the old days in the 70's how many brothers gave up good damn jobs to be what AN ELDER- think about all the little funky positions that eldrs can get locally that don't pay a dime beyond prestige- CITY OVERSERR
ASSEMBLY OVERSEER- SUBCO- I THink of all the former bethel buddies i had who are currrentlY SUBCO, they are n limbo- they can't get a regular job cause they have to be avaible at a moment to serve a congo, and they could at anytime get that letter telling them to start the work in sept as a reg CO so for years these guys and their wives make all kinds of sacrifices waiting A FOR THAT DAMN CALL FROM THE SERVICE DEPT TELLING THEM THEY HAVE A CO ASSIGNMENT
HOW SAD
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blondie
JT, good explanation of the perks of being a Bethel heavy. In the end, power is more desirable than money. I went to a seminar once that explained that we need money really only for our daily needs and a few wants, after that, it has no value. You can only live in one house at a time, drive one car at a time, wear one outfit at a time, etc. But power is an aphrodisiac to many. That ability to be above or in control of others is tempting and corrupts many. Good job!
Blondie
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JT
I went to a seminar once that explained that we need money really only for our daily needs and a few wants, after that, it has no value. You can only live in one house at a time, drive one car at a time, wear one outfit at a time, etc. But power is an aphrodisiac to many. That ability to be above or in control of others is tempting and corrupts many. Good job!
look like we attended the same one, i went to a managment program and they told us that a 5 dollar trophy has more impact on a persons selfworth, esteem, etc than $1000 bonus-
at first we all laughed but he explained to us that if - a person got an envelope with a $1000 and no comment or praise it would not motivate that person ---like a 5$ trophy with his name engraved on it and it is presented before ALL THE EMPLOYEES AT A BLACK TIE AFFAIR- where he is introduced and comes to the stage with the President and VP and their wives, is asked to give a speech etc
the studies show that such praise motivates folks unlike just money does as human we long for the approval of others and in WT approval is ALL WE LIVED FOR enough hours, enough comments, long and deep enough comments, enough books place, rv made, bible studies conducted
i knew of folks who would drive 2 hours for 3 straight weeks to be on a circuit assembly to tell thier exp in service that took lesss than 2 min to tell, yet the applause and praise during lunch time made it all worth wwhile
any bro who has given a public talk on sunday LET ALONE A TALK AT THE CONVENTIONS knows the RUSH ONE FEELS when standing before 1000's YOU ACTUALLY FEEL LIKE GOD'S SPIRIT IS UPON YOU
case in point is Micheal Jackson and Micheal Jordan THE ROAR OF THE CROWD the rush of 10's of 1000's of folks APPROVING OF YOU IS POWERFUL STUFF
same with the bethel heavies- take Milton Henschel, he started flying around the world with Knorr back in the 40's so for the last 60+ yrs this man has had nothing but praise and honor MONEY CAN'T BUY THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FORBES one of the richest men on the earth spent over $60,000,000 FOR A JOB THAT PAYS LESS THAN $400,000 year THE PRESIDENT OF THE USA-
DESPITE BILL GATES billions NOT ONE AIRPORT HAS EVER SHUT DOWN when his plane comes in, YET VERY THING STAND STILL WITH AIR FORCE ONE COMES IN
=humans and power can be a bad combination
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micheal
I truly believe that these big shots at brooklyn have it so much easier than anyone else around. They call all the shots without an ounce of critisism from anyone within the org. If they do it is considered the same as pointing a gun at your head and pulling the trigger. Sounds much like the former Iraq doesn't it.