"Independent" Scotland joke! (page 5)

LoveUniHateExams

In reality a second referendum might be the last - but why?

Because if Scotland voted Leave in a second referendum, then made a shambles of independence, wouldn't there be a clamour for a third IndyRef?

Or the other way around, if a second IndyRef produced the same result, you'd get bloody-minded SNP supporters demanding another.

So, if there was a second referendum and the unionists won again, you'd throw in the towel?

Edited to add: of course, the best way to respect the electorate is to respect the 2014 IndyRef and its result.

Independence supporters would always want another referendum of course, but they don’t get it unless they win an election on that basis. They lost the first two Holyrood elections and look set to lose the next one. But when there is more than 50% support for it then there should be another referendum. That’s democracy.

Rejoining the UK would require the agreement of the rest of the UK and would not be a decision of Scotland alone. But if there was support for it on both sides of the border then it would be reasonable to pursue that. It would probably be a very marginal position if it gained again traction at all.

Because it’s worth pointing out that dozens of countries have declared independence in recent decades, including many who declared independence from the British state. None of them have the slightest interest in giving up their independence as far as I know. Again it’s a strange kind of exceptionalism that imagines Scotland will be the first country in history to regret and want to give up its independence once taken.

The future is always uncertain but at the moment it looks like a second independent will be held and some point and that Scotland will opt for independence. It would be good to make the best of it for all the people of the UK.

LoveUniHateExams

'when there is more than 50% support for it then there should be another referendum. That’s democracy' - ok, let's go with that.

IndyRef 2 happens as soon as there is a majority of support for independence.

Let's ignore the fact that any second referendum might piss all over the first.

So, Scotland goes independent.

Later on, there is a majority who are in favour of rejoining the UK.

Another IndyRef?

Let's also consider the following: Alex Salmond was really, really hoping to lead the independence vote to victory in 2014. That obviously didn't happen. But let's imagine that the Leave vote won.

Would you be supporting another IndyRef if a majority wanted to rejoin the UK?

LoveUniHateExams

Scotland will opt for independence - but we've already discussed how this would break up the UK.

Scotland must not be allowed to break up the UK without the whole of the UK electorate voting on the matter.

BoogerMan

@ sbf - how can you totally ignore/dismiss the economic disaster which a 'Yes' vote would bring down on Scotland's population as previously stated?

"During 2021-22 tax revenue generated in Scotland amounted to about £73.8 billion, including North Sea oil revenue. During the same period, Scotland benefited from about £97.5 billion in public spending, a difference of £23.7 billion."

How many financial lemmings live in Scotland?

IT Support2

Edited to add: of course, the best way to respect the electorate is to respect the 2014 IndyRef and its result.

LoveUni: that's an interesting viewpoint, though don't you think it's the equivalent of saying, 'We don't need another general election because we voted for the Tories in 2010'??

Would you be supporting another IndyRef if a majority wanted to rejoin the UK?

We would have to support another referendum if we wanted to preserve our self-respect and hold up our heads in public. But that's what democracy is all about.

I've just read the thread and enjoyed the variety of comments!

Incidentally. Scottish independence is absolutely not anti-English. There are large numbers of English now living in Scotland who support independence and are welcomed into the fold with open arms. And we enjoy a good-natured debate in the pub with those who disagree with us!

I lived in London for years and had a great time there; and some of my kids have moved to England with their work and they may, or may not, choose to move back when we get our independence, but that's up to them and I'd never criticise them either way.

Independence is simply about which government you vote for; I've no doubt that, post-independence, English folks will still move to Scotland to live, and Scots to England. And we'll still be friends!

Independence is not a declaration of war; it's simply the desire to choose our own government, and the ability to chuck out a government we don't want. Which we're unable to do in Westminster (as we're so much smaller than England).

LoveUniHateExams

LoveUni: that's an interesting viewpoint, though don't you think it's the equivalent of saying, 'We don't need another general election because we voted for the Tories in 2010'?? - no, because general elections happen every 5 years, whereas once-in-a-generation referendums don't. C'mon, it's not difficult to distinguish between the two.

Incidentally. Scottish independence is absolutely not anti-English - this may be correct, but you seem to be using it to cover over anti-English bigotry, which does exist, and seems to be particularly popular with some SNP supporters.

And neither you nor Slim have properly engaged with the point I made earlier: five million Scots must not be allowed to break up the UK. If the fate of the UK is going to be decided, then the whole of the UK electorate must vote on it.

slimboyfat

ITSupport great to “see” you. I hope you’re doing well!

LoveUni I wonder were you in favour of France or Germany having a vote on whether the UK should be allowed to break up the European Union?

IT Support2

ITSupport great to “see” you. I hope you’re doing well!

Thanks, SBF, and yes, I'm doing great! I've very much moved on from xJW-dom but read about the Pennsylvania indictments elsewhere and was interested to see what was being said about it here; but then I saw this thread and got distracted ... ! How are you doing?

were you in favour of France or Germany having a vote on whether the UK should be allowed to break up the European Union?

Great point, love it!

general elections happen every 5 years, whereas once-in-a-generation referendums don't. C'mon, it's not difficult to distinguish between the two.

You're correct, it's not difficult. So why are you failing to distinguish between a legislative requirement and a trite, off-the-cuff remark by an exhausted politician at the end of a gruelling 24-month campaign? Or maybe you think BJ should be prosecuted for perjury for claiming he'd negotiated an 'oven ready' Brexit deal ... ?

anti-English bigotry

First, I'm neither an SNP member nor supporter though I'll admit to having voted for them on occasions where no acceptable alternative existed, and the majority of my friends are SNP members or supporters and we all rub along pretty well. Having said that, I deplore ALL bigotry, whether anti-English, anti-Scottish, anti-independence and, yes, even anti-Union. Though, hand on heart, I have to say I've seen FAR more anti-Scottish and anti-independence bigotry than the reverse.

Where do you live, LoveUni? I'm intrigued that you apparently have experienced - or, at least, witnessed - so much SNP bigotry.

five million Scots must not be allowed to break up the UK

Wow, now we're getting to the heart of your 'argument'. That sounds dangerously close to saying, 'Scots must never be allowed to leave the UK'.

So you think that irrespective of the number of Scottish residents - remember, the voters in an indy referendum are the Scots, English, Welsh, Irish and everyone else who has lived in Scotland for 3 years (from memory) - who vote to withdraw from the Union, we can NEVER be free??

Really? That's captivity, not a voluntary Union ... and it's almost certainly illegal under international law.

notsurewheretogo

"Nevertheless support for independence in Scotland remains as strong as ever."

Simply not true. It has weakened and has never been a consistent majority. It's game over for independence for now what with other issues like cost of living, inflation, interest rates.

@ sbf - how can you totally ignore/dismiss the economic disaster which a 'Yes' vote would bring down on Scotland's population as previously stated?
"During 2021-22 tax revenue generated in Scotland amounted to about £73.8 billion, including North Sea oil revenue. During the same period, Scotland benefited from about £97.5 billion in public spending, a difference of £23.7 billion."
How many financial lemmings live in Scotland?

I've asked this question on here, on every forum and to every supporter of Indy and I've never ever had an answer that tackles the question. All they say is investment and more "levers" with zero detail.

The SNP's Growth Commission report highlights a reduction in public spending is realistically the only way.

So less money on schools, NHS, police etc and they will take away free uni tuition fees, free prescriptions, free eye care all against a plan that has never ever contained economic details as to how you cope with losing billions in subsidies from rUK.

It's just reckless to vote for Indy with zero economic details.

"Independent" Scotland joke!

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