by dins 18 Replies latest watchtower bible
BTW, Artful, I dont know how i could have forgot to mention it, but that was an awesome post. That ones going in my file for shure! I never seen the scripture before at Is.8:12,13 on the rock of offense. And that was some good stuff on the wts trying to change the meaning of worship to obesiance. Either way, theyre wrong again! Good work, and THANKS.
Jim
Hi Diana,
This was a real sticking point for me, too. aChristian did a good job of breaking it down into digestible bites. The scriptures from artful are probably really good, too, especially the ones in Revelation (alpha and omega), but after 25 yrs in the bOrg, I can't take looking up too many scriptures anymore.
I recommend getting in touch with Randy Watters at freeminds.org, and requesting his tape on the Trinity. Hearing him talk about the scriptures in the OT, especially Isaiah, was a real eyeopener for me. I was driving in my car and had to pull over to the side of the road because I was crying so hard! Also, if you have the opportunity to go to a Seder ("passover" as celebrated by the Jews) grab the chance. Generally there are Seders put on by Christian churches near Easter, or if you have any "observant" Jewish friends, they might let you attend theirs. There is a ritual in the Seder which has a definte reference to the Trinity.
Good Luck!
dins,
artful and achristian have obviously studuied the subject extensively.
Jesus is the "Son of Man" he claimed this. He is the Son of God. To deny his deity for being the Son of God would be to deny his humanity for being the Son of Man
The trinity is not three persons that are one person. They are three persons that are three persons and One God.
I don't think your coworker said "they are one in the same" though. If he/she did they were not entirely accurate. If you are reffering to God you can be reffering to the Father and not the Son. Christ and God are not simply "one in the same." This difference yet consistency is established with the Trinity which means three that are one. The trinity is three persons. Each person is God and there is only one God.
If you actually believe Jesus is God it will make perfect sense to you. I have no problem understatnding the trinity. I think that it is because I accept and know Jesus for who and what he is. That is what it comes down to. We don't believe Jesus is God to justify the Trinity. We believe Jesus is God because that is who he is and there is nothing else he can be before he comes to earth (tense intentional).
aunthill, the Jesus is God scriptures will blow your mind.
I really liked some of the great posts on this Thread!
However, that said, I would like to comment on CZAR's statement:
The Trinity makes no difference on how humans are to live their lives. The Two Greatest Commandments do! Was Jesus God? Who knows? Who cares, really, believe as you like. Remember, it's not what we believe that gets us our eternal reward, it is "doing the will of the Father". Which is to take care of widows and orphans and whatnot.
There are so many things wrong those words I don't know where to begin.
First, I'll start with this statement: Remember, it's not what we believe that gets us our eternal reward, it is "doing the will of the Father".
Acts 16:30: ..."Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Acts 16:31: They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Acts 15:11: But we believe that we are saved through the grace [undeserved kindness] of the Lord Jesus...
Galatians 2:16: yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through the faith of Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the Law.
Galatians 5:4: You are alienated from Christ, you who desire to be justified by the Law. You have fallen away from grace [undeserved kindness].
Galatians 2:21: ...For if righteousness is through the Law, then Christ died for nothing!"
Romans 11:6: And if by grace [undeserved kindness], then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace [undeserved kindness] is no longer grace [undeserved kindness]. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace [undeserved kindness]; otherwise work is no longer work.
Romans 3:20-28: Because by the works of the Law, no flesh will be justified in His sight. For through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the Law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the Law and the Prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; being justified freely by His grace [undeserved kindness] through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; whom God set forth to be an Atoning Sacrifice, through faith in His Blood, for a demonstration of His righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God's forbearance; to demonstrate His righteousness at this present time; that He might Himself be Just, and the Justifier of him who has faith in Jesus. Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. By what manner of Law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. We maintain therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law.
Romans 4:2-5: For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace [undeserved kindness], but as debt. But to him who doesn't work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.
John 1:12: But as many as received Him [Jesus Christ], to them He gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in His Name
John 3:14-18: As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God loved the world so much, that He gave His Only-Begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God didn't send His Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the Name of the Only-Begotten Son of God.
"The Bible was not given to increase our knowledge. It was given to change lives." D.L. Moody
I’m not here to convince anyone on the Trinity. I believe only the Holy Spirit can do that. I don’t believe we as human beings can truly comprehend the Trinity. I did study it on my own. I prayed about it; please show me what the truth is. I have the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible and that really helped me. There is so much evidence. This is only a small list. I’ve only mentioned here of Jesus being part of the Trinity and not the Holy Spirit. One book I’m reading at the moment is Immanuel (experiencing Jesus as Man and God) by John A. Witmer. Hope this helps.
The bible clearly teaches that there is only one God. Trinity: Three persons - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are equally and eternally God, but that each is distinct.
Isaiah 44: 6 & 8 I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Isaiah: 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.Hosea 13:4
and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.John 1 1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.Rev 1: 11-17
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me.
13 And in the mist of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man,
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead, And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Trinity: "He who would deny it will lose his soul, and he who would too much seek to understand it will lose his wits." Jonathan Edwards
Diana,
You can download an article called Beyond Trinitarianism found on my web page at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/
It will answer many of your questions and provide an alternate view to many of the arguments offered to you in this thread. If you download the entire book this article is included with it also.
Joseph
Artful,
Thanks.
bttt for John
this is my personal belief. I do not claim anyone elses, nor do I intend to convert anyone to mine.
I believe the people who became the Jews recorded their ideas of God in what we have come to know as Genesis. The first chapter speaks of Elohim, which is plural. The second chapter speaks of YHWH, which is also plural--BUT-is one family unit of 'gods', separate from, but a part of, Elohim(read the first two chapters of Genesis in a good comparative Bible that gives the Hebrew and Aramaic references and you will see the two accounts of creation are very different and contradictory IF you understand them to be the SAME creation--however if you see them as two different examples of creation they do not conflict. Elohim created the Universe and other humans, YHWH created the Garden and Adam and Eve--and Lilith, but that is a different story.) Yod-He-Vau-He is Father/Mother/Son/Daughter(or Bride) and denotes ONE family unit 'GOD'. Nothing wrong with this---the Jews were very family/tribe oriented, as all humans. It was only with the rise of warrior/patriarchal society that the Matronit(or Mother/Daughter) got lost in the shuffle. But it is still not difficult to find the Jehovah/Shekinah pair right up thru Solomons Temple in secular historical documents. I see the Old Testament-shift to-New Testament as the natural prgression from Father/Mother to Son/Daughter(Bride). So---basically the YHWH of the Jews and into the the God of the Christians is not a Trinity but a Quaternity. Even if you believe in the Trinity, there is still the Bride of Christ to consider. Holy Spirit may be called 'male' but it has all the qualities of a Mother, and the words used for it in the OT are feminine.
Many other religions have trinities too. Usually they consist of two sets of trinities, one male and one female, or just a female trinity with one male god who services all and manages to get himself sacrificed(and usually chopped up into pieces).
The oldest concept of 'God' is that it is female who gives birth to a son without the help of another male. Then when the Son grows into maturity, he then becomes consort to the Mother who is now represented by a Daughter, or has changed her aspect to 'Maiden' again so the cycle can be perpetuated. The Son becomes the Father and then conveniently dies, while the Maiden/Mother/Crone goes on some dark inner journey(winter-time) to get him back as a newborn Son(Winter Solstice). Sometimes it is the Son/Father who goes on the quest. But it varies little among the ancient mythos.
Personally, YHWH is not my particular name for my 'god'. I am not Jewish. But I do not think YHWH is necessarily ONLY a Jewish god either. I think it represents the common idea of god. I also do not believe YHWH is the ULTIMATE DIVINITY. That would have been Elohim in the Jewish mythos. So I can be a 'trinitarian' and a 'unitarian' at the same time. And I can go to a Christian service and not feel out of place. I can profess the 'Apostle's Creed' and not feel like I am a traitor to it. I just believe BEYOND it. And I equally respect the beliefs of my own particular heritage. I don't see them as conflicting because I understand where they all come from.
Ravyn
