Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt 73 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • Saintbertholdt
    Saintbertholdt
    "They didn't move on him right after he moved away, they had to find something to "get him" on, and they even had to change the DA doctrine just to get him on that."

    When he refused the Watchtower stipend they knew he would not keep quiet. Frederick knew what he was going to do and had to make sure no one would associate with him or read his book. Yeah it F'd everybody else in A for decades to come but hey, it was war. Raymond Franz felt pangs of conscience over the reason for his DF'ing because he knew how much pain it caused and because his own motives were not snowy white.

  • Diogenesister
    Diogenesister
    Wasn't his silence complacency?

    Ray Franze was an old fashioned guy. At the risk of sounding mawkish, was it not a case of

    "If you cant say something nice don't something at all".

    Also, and I may be wrong here, was not Leo Greenlees made to leave because he was gay - not a pederast.

    Regarding the correspondence, I get what you are saying. I have always felt that folk seem to go far for three reasons

    They are intelligent

    They dilligent/meticulous

    They are energetic/hard working

    Of the three the last two are far and away the most important ( In fact in my experience the first alone is more of a handicap than anything!). It seems to me Ray Franze had at least the first two characteristics in abundence which may explain the (well organized) attachment to his correspondence. But yes, he would have been foolish not see it coming and for him to say he didn't seems a little disingenuous.

    Leading on from that, what I find interesting is that he so obviously didn't trust Gods 'loving, only true' Christian organization in the least!

  • Saintbertholdt
    Saintbertholdt
    Leading on from that, what I find interesting is that he so obviously didn't trust Gods 'loving, only true' Christian organization in the least!

    Ah hahahahahaha. As in all politics you definitely can't trust the other guy to play fair.

  • Saintbertholdt
    Saintbertholdt
    "Also, and I may be wrong here, was not Leo Greenlees made to leave because he was gay - not a pederast."

    Possibly both. The threads on the forum say that the accusations were made by a boy. Decades later a (now grown) man by the name of Mark Palo made the accusation on video.

  • zophar
    zophar

    The immaculate documentation presented in CofC was one of the first things I noticed the first time I read the book. It spoke to me of someone who was prepared for an exposé. Which would add credibility to your way of thinking.

    I was an elder during that time and had a fleshly brother at Bethel. I remember hearing of Spanish Brothers imploring ALL present at the Memorial to partake as they were all Anointed. This leads me to believe there was a coup type mentality of some. It certainly would not have gone unnoticed by Ray. Remember, Ray was one of the principle ones to advocate for less power of the WTBTS presidency. Of course, no one can read Ray's motive. A friend who had a very responsible position at Bethel at that time and knew Knorr well, has told me that Knorr felt that Ray had designs on the presidency. Of course, that is just his opinion, but knowing him and his demeanor, I believe it to be true.

    When I resigned as an elder I had a number of letters that had been written regarding elder matters on my computer and I had made copies of some policy letters from the Society that I would refer to, but nothing like the documentation Ray presented in his book. AND it is this documentation that, perhaps more than anything else, convinced me that Ray's claims were true and verifiable. It shouts to me that he had an agenda when he left Bethel. Doesn't bother me except that it suggests "he was gathering evidence while on the inside" as you mention in your post.

    Ray's books had a tremendous effect on my thinking, and his way of writing, without the flaming apostate attitude I was led to believe I would find by WTBTS, impressed me greatly. However, I believe he knew what he was eventually going to do when he left if he could not make reforms from the inside.

  • zophar
    zophar
    Great post by the way!
  • Saintbertholdt
    Saintbertholdt
    Ray's books had a tremendous effect on my thinking, and his way of writing, without the flaming apostate attitude I was led to believe I would find by WTBTS, impressed me greatly. However, I believe he knew what he was eventually going to do when he left if he could not make reforms from the inside.

    Thanks for the good insights.

    I will say CoC definitely had a positive effect on me.

    The motivation for this thread came from the way everybody came down on Vinman. Now he did not really provide any arguments for Ray being an 'idiot' so he got hammered. But the thread also showed the fact that Franz has in some ways obtained a demigod status in ex-JW circles.

    So I guess I want to peg him down a notch or two. Franz wanted to rule the world like everybody else, and he had personal selfish motivations. His supposed pure altruism was pure horse manure.

  • steve2
    steve2

    Ray was scrupulously careful about every single person he mentioned in his book.

    It is unfair to say he should have "outed" Greenlees.

    There were rumors circulating, true, but there always were in Bethel.

    I agree with the poster who said if Ray had outed Greenlees (with what sort of evidence?), it would have overshadowed the considered message he was giving about his observations of and experiences with the other GB in terms of doctrine, policies and procedures. And the GB would have loved it if Ray had exposed Greenlees and the attention was on a lone individual who was subjected to enough personal humiliation and disgrace in his latter years anyway.

  • Dumplin
    Dumplin

    I believe he knew what he was eventually going to do when he left if he could not make reforms from the inside.

    If there was a takeover conspiracy and if it had succeeded, I'm wondering what reforms we would have seen and if those reforms may have caused a mass exodus? ie partaking of emblems, d/f policy changes, etc

  • Wasanelder Once
    Wasanelder Once
    The stipend was hush money. I would refuse it too. Ray was covering his ass more than conspiring to take over for his uncle. I think its a grand theory but I get the sense from his book CoC and videos of him giving talks on YouTube in Europe that he was not in any way seeking status or prominence. His writing for the Aid book was not original or revelatory, it was a well quoted exposition on the subjects at hand and in that way it refuted Uncle Freddy's wacky doctrines. He took the letters because they were his but he also was covering his ass. There is nothing worse than being accused of bullshit and not having a powerful response to defend yourself. I think that's what he did and he knew firsthand how vicious the GB can be. He probably wanted out and not to be associated with their crimes any longer.

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