Are there only two ways out of the WT World?

by Maverick 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • blackguard
    blackguard

    Hey dedalus, I think it's fair to say that baptism nullification is hypothetical at this point in time. No-one can state categorically that it works in the way it's theorized to. This is the context of this discussion, isn't it? What we do know is that D/Fment and D/A'n is a one-way street in regards to maintaining communication with friends and family within the gulags. BN at least holds the potential for civility. In regards to lawsuits under the present D/F & D/A arrangement it's been my understanding that legally one can do little to nothing for the simple reason that the baptism is the means by which contractual agreement emerges and binds the individual to the terms implied or otherwise known in his relationship to the spiritual corporate tyrant. BN, in theory, seems to exempt the individual from the contract. Even maverick doesn't know postively how this will pan out. I recall him stating that he maintains communication with some of those to whom he sent a copy of his BN. This might suggest BN is working.

    Farkel, although demonstrating the tragedy of watcher-induced suicides, raises the possibility that BN could be construed as spiritual suicide, thus additionally releasing the individual from bondage to corporate tyranny.

  • dedalus
    dedalus

    Blackguard,

    Forgive the cut and paste method, it's just what I do. As a disclaimer, I respect you and your views, and in a way I hope you're right. But I can't agree with you.

    I think it's fair to say that baptism nullification is hypothetical at this point in time. No-one can state categorically that it works in the way it's theorized to. This is the context of this discussion, isn't it?

    I think this is all fine and good, Blackguard -- except when I have I said that this isn't the context of the discussion? The reason I entered into the discussion so vigorously is because Maverick has been on several threads talking about this, and in one thread in particular he said that a person who had DA'd himself was now powerless, without options, and had made an inferior decision (it was "too bad" he DA'd). If BN is all hypothetical at this point in time, why come on so strong against someone who didn't choose it? Why not instead respect the decision made by the poster's son? That's all I'm saying, an I don't think it's such an awful thing to say.

    What we do know is that D/Fment and D/A'n is a one-way street in regards to maintaining communication with friends and family within the gulags. BN at least holds the potential for civility.

    Do you really think so? I wish I could agree, but I can't. Maverick even agrees that people who BN will be shunned, as I said in my last message and repeat now. And it seems somewhat obvious to me that the Witnesses who would remain friendly with people who nullified are likely the same Witnesses who already have friendly contact with the disassociated and disfellowshipped, the same Witnesses who, one way or another, are on their way out of the Organization anyway, or who stay in for convenience but don't take it seriously. Loyal dubs, however -- the ones we'd all like to reach and shake some sense into -- know what you have to be doing to be "good association," and nullifying your baptism sure ain't it.

    In regards to lawsuits under the present D/F & D/A arrangement it's been my understanding that legally one can do little to nothing for the simple reason that the baptism is the means by which contractual agreement emerges and binds the individual to the terms implied or otherwise known in his relationship to the spiritual corporate tyrant.

    And what I wrote is still absolutely correct: in disassociation you retain your legal rights as a citizen and can still sue for things that are illegal, like libel. The contractual agreement with the corporation never required you to give up that right, even while you were still in it.

    BN, in theory, seems to exempt the individual from the contract.

    Once you're disassociated, you're exempt from the contract too. The funny thing about BN is that it claims that the contract was never valid because you were duped into it. Which to me seems kind of strange, since elsewhere on this board Maverick has talked (directly to me, I think) about taking responsibility for choices made and moving on as adults. Claiming you were duped, tricked, and utterly manipulated is hardly taking personal responsibility, in my opinion. I suppose it happens, though, and I'm not necessarily unsympathetic to those who feel that way.

    And it's just an opinion, certainly not one I'd foist on someone innocently posting about his or her exit from the Organization. Leaving that motherfucker is tough, and the important thing is to be out in a way that makes peace for you. Which is why I questioned a couple of remarks, somewhat arrogant in flavor, made by Maverick about his hypothetical alternative that even he's not sure will work.

    Even maverick doesn't know positively how this will pan out. I recall him stating that he maintains communication with some of those to whom he sent a copy of his BN. This might suggest BN is working.

    That's great for Maverick. I sincerely hope it works out for him. Me -- I personally don't want to maintain contact with Witnesses who'll hear that I'm DA'd. I'm through with that religion and people who loyally remain in it.

    Dedalus

    Edited by - dedalus on 15 February 2003 10:56:57

  • Maverick
    Maverick

    Dear Farkel: Suicide is a permanent solution to an otherwise temporary situation. And even thought dadalus will find something in my comments to whine about, it is demonic. So it is no surprise some poor slaves see it as their only out. They are in an authoritarian demoniac "closed" society!

    Dear dadulus: I admit I was duped. I swallowed the camel. Hell, I swallowed a thousand camels in 25 years! And I do except reponsibility for it. You like to insinuate and imply intent while saying you are not, to accuse me of being judgemental while saying you are not. To create non issues. I guess you come by that honestly, after all you too were a camel gulper. You whine and act (up till now) as if all my comments implied you were wrong for the course you chose. Do you need validation and approval that bad? Well don't look to me. I am now directing my comments at you-personally. You have a lot of pain you need to deal with sir, I am not the enemy. The first line of your first comment on my "letter" smacked of smug arrogance. So don't play all peace-loving and innocent. Your a mid-level academic educated beyond your level to apply what you know! You remind me of the enigneers I deal with who are brilliant in their field but can't pick out matching socks or tie a tie. And as for the BN, if it helps one person I'm happy. P.S. I have spelled you user name as I did on purpose.

  • dedalus
    dedalus

    Anything to avoid an actual discussion, right Maverick?

    Dedalus

  • blackguard
    blackguard

    Hey dedalus, I cannot speak for maverick, his views on D/F't & D/A'n etc.. What I see in this BN is the potential for something better, something by which the individual can take the stick out of the tyrants' hands and leave on his terms and still give the proles a watchtower-legalistic basis to maintain communication with the now worldly reinstated individual. When an individual is D/F'd he permits the action on the thugs' terms; when he D/A's he admits departure on the thugs' terms. BN is taking this out of the thugs' hands, it seems. Now most of my terms, clauses and phrases are couched in "seems", "may", "might" etc. for the simple reason I do not know how successful this method will or will not be. Furthermore, I would argue if a person has permitted his own D/F't or D/A'n he allows the perpetuation of any labelling of himself as an implied acceptance of the tyrants' perpetual control over him and cannot sue. But that's just my opinion. May be there's a legal mind that'd like to comment on this.

  • dedalus
    dedalus

    Blackguard,

    I'll only say that I think the perpetuation of any labelling goes on no matter what when you leave. Witnesses are frequently advised to doubt the integrity of their own members. Having said that (hopefully without sounding like I'm mentally deranged, as I evidently have sounded all along ), I think your observations are sound and I respect them.

    Dedalus

  • blackguard
    blackguard

    Hey dedalus,

    If it's any consolation, as survivors of mindcontrol, I suspect we're all a little derranged! This forum allows what was intolerable in the tightly controlled watchtower environment---some semblance of openness based on our diverse experiences and views. I suspect that the challenge of Christian freedom is to attain unity via diversity, AND not pseudo-unity via conformity as mind control groups demand. Keep up with your opposing views; there is so much to learn, not only about the subject matter under discussion, but how others think and feel and reason. Thank you for your input here.

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