Evolution or Creation??

by dottie 172 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • rem
    rem

    Hooberus,

    Cars do not reproduce and do not pass down heritable traits via DNA so the analogy is false. Any competent archeologist/biologist knows the difference between human artifacts and biological, reproducing structures.

    Also, the Haeckel drawings you are referring to and the evolutionary theories about them are probably not what you think they are. The embryos are very similar as the photographs show, but Haeckel went further and proposed that all animals went through the various stages of evolution during embryonic development. We know, of course, that this is not true, yet the striking similarities between the many different types of embryos is a testament to evolution.

    rem

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    rem said:

    Cars do not reproduce and do not pass down heritable traits via DNA so the analogy is false. Any competent archeologist/biologist knows the difference between human artifacts and biological, reproducing structures.

    rem, an anaolgy does not have to be parallel in all ways in order to make a specific point. My analogy was accurate with regars to the specific point that I was making.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    rem said:

    Also, the Haeckel drawings you are referring to and the evolutionary theories about them are probably not what you think they are. The embryos are very similar as the photographs show, but Haeckel went further and proposed that all animals went through the various stages of evolution during embryonic development. We know, of course, that this is not true, yet the striking similarities between the many different types of embryos is a testament to evolution.

    rem, while the faked drawings are similar, I don't think that the actual photo's are. If you haven't already read the whole arcticle as it is brief.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    But wait — there's more

    When evolutionists say that the recapitulation theory is false, they usually do not mean to admit that comparing embryos gives no evidence of common ancestry. In fact, they still frequently highlight the assumed similarities between embryos in their early stages (called embryonic homology) as evidence for evolution. This assumption is based on the idea that such similarities are ‘common knowledge’.5

    This alleged similarity of embryos has for years been resting, consciously or unconsciously, on a set of 24 of Haeckel's drawings which he first published in 1866 in his Generalle Morphologie der Organismen, and then repeated in 1874 in his more popular Anthropogenie (Click to see 67k JPG image). These purport to show embryos of fish, salamander, turtle, chicken, pig, cow, rabbit, and human in three stages of development.

    The various stages, particularly the earlier ones, show substantial similarity. Ever since these drawings appeared, it has been assumed that they have given us something close to the truth about embryos of vertebrate species. So much so that they still appear in textbooks and popular works on evolution.6 , 7

    In fact, no one has bothered to check — until now. It turns out that Haeckel's fraud was much worse than anyone realised. It did not just affect the idea of recapitulation, it turns out that the similarities are much, much less than anyone thought.

    The above excerpt is taken from the same arcticle. While the drawaings show substantial similarities, the actual photo's don't.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    funkyderek said:

    Hooberus, I don't understand. You believe that evolution is effective enough to change an organism's genome enough so that it can't interbreed with a close relative, but not that this can happen multiple times? What do you mean by macro-evolution beyond speciation? If species can diverge a little bit in a short time, then why can't they diverge a lot over a longer period?

    Your position seems to be rather like saying that you believe acorns can grow into small oak trees but not big oak trees because you've never seen that happen.

    funkyderek, acorns growing into small oak trees and then into larger oak trees is the logical out- working of the same continous process. I (time allowing) will post why the micro to macro theory is not similar to this in that they generally involve opposite processes and not the out- working of the same process over longer periods of time.

  • rem
    rem

    Hooberus,

    I'm afraid I do not agree that the photos don't show substantial similarities. Evolutionary theory would predict that vertebrates would have a more similar looking embryology with other vertebrates than with invertebrates. That's exactly what we see (invertebrate embryos look much different). Also realize that different animals develop at different rates so there really can be no direct comparison at specific time intervals. I think the similarities are striking considering the end result.

    rem, an anaolgy does not have to be parallel in all ways in order to make a specific point. My analogy was accurate with regars to the specific point that I was making.

    I respectfully disagree that your analogy was relevant. There are distinct differences between human artifacts and biological structures - so much so that they are analogous only in the most superficial of ways. True, an analogy doesn't have to be parallel in all ways, but it should be parallel in the important ways, otherwise it's a fallacy of false analogy.

    rem

  • nowisee
    nowisee

    read "a skeptic's search for god" by ralph muncaster. compelling.

  • Chap
    Chap
    If my understanding of the second law of thermodynamics is accurate, order always moves toward disorder. In other words, things in the universe were better yesterday than they are today. In order for one to prove evolution true, he has to prove the second (and first) law of thermodynamics to be false.

    funkyderek said:

    Your understanding of the second law of thermodynamics isn't accurate. Entropy increases in a closed system, but the earth is not a closed system. Evolution doesn't violate any physical laws.

    My lack of understanding may not be in the second law of thermodynamics but in what is meant by a "closed system". Isn't the earth part of the universe that is the whole system in which this law applies? My understanding is that the whole universe is deteriorating. What is the reason that the earth is not considered part of a closed system? Is it because if it were, evolution would have to be thrown out? Then the reasoning would follow; since evolution cannot be thrown out, the earth must not be a "closed system".

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    You're evasive hooberus. We are discussing Evolution or Creation; look at the subject of the thread! One requires discussion of various evolutionary mechanisms. The other requires discussion of various creative mechanisms.

    Natural selection is an evolutionary mechanism. God and the process of Creation is a creative mechanism.

    To avoid all responsibility of answering questions regarding the mechanism you are trying to support is presuppositionalist; you are effectively saying "there is a God, therefore that tree was created/that tree was created, therefore there is a God".

    That's not science hooberus, it's not even rational; it's the 'there's a Chritmas present therefore Santa exists' routine.

    If you refuse to defend your god in rational terms, it's not worth the wear on my finger-tips.

    You apply a consistant double standard as this is the only way you can maintain your belief structure; cognotive dissonance. Look at this, you say;

    "the theory of god" ... is not necessary to prove in oder for creation to be true

    Yet if I said ;

    '"the theory of evolution" ... is not necessary to prove in order for evolution to be true'

    ... you would object. You cannot be so blind to reason as to see that without proof of god the theory of creation is as unsupportable as the theory of evolution would be if there were no fossil record. Without proof it's just you and a bunch of old books saying it, none of which can be verified today.

    You also distort the truth by implying that an article written by a creationist would be refused peer review by a mainstream magazine. I think you'll find it's more a question of creationist articles failing peer review, for the same reasons that your arguement is flawed; sloppy, unscientific, unrational, with two standards of evidence and utterly non-falsifiable. A theory that cannot be falsified is worthless... I theorise that you are a mutant space alien disguised as a human! SO well disguised it would be impossible to detect even under the closest scrutiny, and that you are beaming undetectable messages to the space mutant empire that will lead to Earth being invaded by 8' high mutant nymphomaniacs. You can't prove me wrong, so it must be right!

    Even your truck metaphor is flawed; if people found its preserved remains after thousands of years, and there was a book claiming to have a contemporary account of the trucks manufacture, that said it was made in a way that was clearly not accurate based upon a thorough examination of the remains, that document would be discredited. Just like the Bible is discredited if compared to the physical evidence we have.

    They would be able to determine details of it's manufacture... if more were discovered, they would be able to be classified according to their similarities and grouped together - the Fordosauruses, the Chevyosaurs, the flat-bed Plymouthes. DIfferent families could be seen to have the same features, obviously to allow them to compete in similar environments. Arguements would rage over the purpose of heated seats and cup-holders. People would have pet theories about the reason for the development of seatbelt and later, of airbags. The trucks in the older strata would be more primative than those in the younger strata. They would be able to determine, for example, that radios were a positive factor in 'selection' of trucks, and that certain colours were obviously an advantage in 'survival' terms, purely through the pattern of remains. 'Flying trucks' would be discovered, and the family connection to trucks shown (similar materials, similar powerplants, same 'food'). People would uncover the remains of a flying car (they do exist), and others would claim they were fakes!

    You have, single-handedly provided a fantastic evolutionary metaphor, but don't know enough of biology to see that the manufacture process can quite accurately be an analogy of pregnancy, and that the development of technology proceeding the truck is a brilliant analogy for evoltionary development, and the process that leads some features to be popular is a good model for natural selection. You see life as by definition miraculous and of supernatural origin, rather than a rather clever way of chemicals passing on information. Unfortunately as you know very little of biology, you won't have experienced the feeling I did one day in biology class... the realisation that evolution DID make sense, and was quite sensible compared to the competing theories, even if it was obviously a theory in development.

    Whatever, it's now dull doing this with you as you never answer questions properly and use irrational arguements with implicit double standards.

    I'll get round to posting my three questions to creationists in a few weeks. I doubt very much, based on your tendancy to evade difficult questions, that I'll see your name on that thread.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Chap, the Universe is a closed system and will eventually die from entropy (or so some theories say).

    There is nowhere for energy to come into the Universe. Or so we think.

    The Earth has energy being pumped into in the form of sunlight.

    Example. A country (the Universe) can close it's borders to new people (energy), but people (energy) can still travel between towns (parts of the Universe).

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