by JNS2 31 Replies latest jw friends
Hi J,
Welcome to the board.
I totally understand what you are feeling right now. I had similar concerns and posted about them not too long ago.
This may interest you.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=26668&site=3
I guess nothing changes overnight, but I do know I feel very uncomfortable using the name "Jehovah" during prayer. Maybe we just have to do whatever feels right to us, ya know?
Hi Heaven, (I like the sound of that!), thanks for the link to the older thread. I enjoyed all 3 pages of it. I really like the combination of serious, funny, irreverant & amazingly insightful comments that come from the people that post here.
My question was serious too & I think for now Heavenly Father will work nicely for me. Abba Father feels right too. I just don't want to loose my confidence in there being a Creator now that I'm out in the cold so to speak. It is wonderful to have a place like this to share with others that have a common experience. Reading some of the threads can be so mind stimulating.
Anyway, thanks for sharing.....Larry
JNS2,
"It is wonderful to have a place like this to share with others that have a common experience."
I agree.
First of all, before reading this let me make it clear that these comments are not meant to point any fingers personally, but are general observations. With that in mind:
Starfish's observation about the old habit comment brought to mind one other point. I think one way you can distinguish religious people is how much of their practice is driven by conditioning. This behavior is very common and prevalent in all religions, even the ones that are non-theistic. The point is you really are not doing anything different regardless of the content or difference of belief, you're only doing what you're used to. This to me is about as DEAD as it gets, because anybody can do what they're used to doing, even non-religious people and animals do this.
The question itself of how to pray or whatever other how-to can be a type of conditioning, just another habit. It's this desire of wanting to KNOW, whereas when you get right down to it you can't REALLY know for sure - though you can just be yourself. Now I should note here that when I say be yourself I certainly don't mean go with your old habits, but at the same time don't try to re-condition yourself by forcing yourself into a certain way of behaving, because that is just an extension of your habit of wanting to know. This is true humility, not the phoney crap like sitting in the back of the hall or saying some humble sounding thing, as if words alone changes your attitude, (by the way, even if you really think you are unworthy and is human rubbish, that is still a self centered attitude - it's just that you have a low opinion of self) but simply and honestly acknowledging when you just don't know.
Look, if you pray then chances are you believe that God can read hearts, right? So what difference does it make what words you use? If it's all about being open and honest, then just be open and honest with yourself and let the words come out naturally. The real question is do you mean what you say? You can have the perfect little formula and include God's will, others, yourself all in Jesus name Amen but again that can just become a dead habit. You might as well be reading it out of a book at that point, because just because it is committed to memory it doesn't mean you mean any of it. "Let your yes mean yes and your no, no." - no?
At first (over a period of about 3 years), I "switched over" to praying to Yahweh (a technicality), and that made me feel better. Then, when it seemed evident to me that praying to Jesus was Scriptural (after all, he'd been a human, he knew what it was all about, eh?), that made me feel better. Then, along the lines of what Intro says, I began to feel that how I felt was more important than how I expressed. Now, for me, it's rather like Ghandi said:
It is better in prayer to have a heart without words than words without a heart.Craig
Onacruse: I like those thoughts. I think my ideas about praying will evolve like yours. I'm trying to break the old praying to Jehovah habit with substituting Heavenly Father or Yahweh but it's amazing how often Jehovah still comes up in my mind. I like your Ghandi quote. How true!
Ihtrospection: I think your post is very enlightened. I recognize the habit or ritual nature of my praying at this point. But I'm so freshly out of the ritualistic religion that it will be some time before I'll be able to free my mind completely. I like your thoughts, but for now I don't want to take away ALL the things I've been standing on all these years. If I COMPLETELY take away the floor, I might fall & I don't know what's down there! Yikes!!!
JNS, I think it's important not to try to take away all of the habits one has, actually. For one thing, we can see how it is hard to function in the world if you took away every kind of habit you have. But more to the point it isn't about getting rid of habits, it's about seeing things for what they are. You can even pray the same exact way you have before, but as long as you know it's just a habit then you are not caught by it you see? When we make a big effort to try to alter some kind of habit, whether it be religious, health related or whatever, quite often it is just an attempt at pushing it away - but from what I've seen true change comes from an awareness that is so thorough that the habit simply dissolves, because it is seen through.
As an example, we might look at someone with say, heart disease. It's all fine and good that they've read about it and appreciate the need to eat a lighter diet, exercise and the like, but if they are really aware of what's going on they can feel how a heavy meal will just bring down their energy and make them feel sluggish. This awareness can become so sensitive that the person doesn't have to eat a whole meal or even put the food in their mouth to know this, it's enough to simply smell the food because they are no longer identified with the taste which they perceive as a source of joy - which of course it is, we all enjoy food, but a person with this level of sensitivity has broadened their scope of awareness enough so that they realize there's a lot more going on than pleasing the taste buds. So in a similar way, when we are aware we no longer become identified with how a particular ritual makes us feel, because we don't identify with the feeling either. So it's not about the thoughts or the feelings, but you might sort of say it's everything put together - because it is already together, we just have to start looking at it that way.
Intro, when I was "found" at my door by the JWs, I told them I was a Zen Buddhist Christian. Your posts remind me of Eastern thinking. Are you in any kind of affiliation or are you just living according to your inner self & moved by your own thinking? JNS2
JNS, to me there is no difference between the two.
To give you a better idea of where I'm coming from these days JNS, I stopped reading spiritual stuff of all type (except for brief quotes and an article here and there, no books tho) about 8 months ago, and things have never been so clear as they are now. When I post I don't really think about it, I just start posting. Of course, it seems to me what I have to say is really pretty simple stuff, for some reason enough people just don't seem to see it so it seems appropriate to point it out.
