Staying Awake Or Keeping In A Frenzy?

by AlanF 53 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    AlanF:

    Im not sure of the connection between the elders comment and yours at your JC. Please elaborate.

    As you may recall, this was the 3rd (4th?) JC I was summoned to in their effort to nail me for apostasy, and needless to say I was getting pretty dang tired of it all. I asked them again to read Matt 24:36 ("no one knows the day or hour"), and that's what prompted one elder to ask "Well, then, why did Jesus give us all these signs?" I'd previously responded to them about the (non-)validity of WTS claims re: earthquakes, wars, pestilence, etc (ty for your info ), and pointed out that a person can "be alert" without "being frenzied," so why get all bent out of shape about "signs" anyway?

    I decided that the best way to disarm this "fishing" question from the elder was to just throw the whole issue into the "how would I know?" category. In the back of my mind I was thinking of a saying (I don't know the source) that "prophecy can only be understood after it's fulfilled."

    My "strategy" worked for a while, anyway! hehe

    Craig

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Hi Craig,

    : I decided that the best way to disarm this "fishing" question from the elder was to just throw the whole issue into the "how would I know?" category. In the back of my mind I was thinking of a saying (I don't know the source) that "prophecy can only be understood after it's fulfilled."

    Ok, so it was just a ploy to get them off your back.

    That saying, BTW, came from Rutherford. Of course, he didn't hesitate to violate it whenever it was convenient.

    As I said in my original post, I've been astounded at the level of intellectual cowardice, and downright dishonesty with respect to these supposed "signs", namely, how can it be that normal, everyday events can be a sign of anything? I challenged one of the most vociferous of JW defenders, You Know, several times about this. He always avoided giving an answer. Same thing with other JWs over the years.

    The problem is that since the early 1920s the Society has claimed that various physical events have been much worse than ever before. Until the early 1990s they constantly tried to justify this by publishing bogus statistics, such as claiming that earthquakes since 1914 have been 20 times worse than before. Carl Jonsson especially, solidly debunked this nonsense in The Sign of the Last Days: When? and others have churned out plenty of online refutations of these claims. The fact that the Writing Dept. no longer puts out their garbage statistics, but only makes vague, meaningless claims (like "Jesus said there would be earthquakes; we see earthquakes") shows that they know they have no legs to stand on. But because they've been making these claims for 80 years they can't very well admit that they've been wrong, and even lying, all this time. It would kill what little confidence remains in Watchtower leaders.

    It's interesting that the bogus claims about "signs" began shortly after the devastating 1923 Tokyo earthquake. Rutherford and company apparently saw this as a way to beat the drum about urgency. Until then, the Society interpreted the "earthquake sign" figuratively, such that earthquakes represented political upheavals. Russell used this idea his entire career. Of course, with a sample of just eight years, Rutherford was completely out to lunch in his claims about earthquakes. Same for all the other supposed "signs". Good lord! World War I had just ended and of course there were going to be continued disruptions in human affairs. But this kind of ridiculous jumping to desired conclusions is typical of cults, and Adventist cults in particular.

    AlanF

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    "The Message" is a translation of the New Testament into ordinary English, that is close to the feel of the Koine Greek. In this translation of Matthew 24, after discussing the Earthquakes etc Jesus says "This is routine history, this is no sign of the End." In other words, the Society is wrong by 180 degrees. Jesus was telling is followers not to get worked up by stuff that happened all the time. I'm going to point this out the next time I get in a conversation with a JW. Should be fun.

    A question I want to ask a witness some time in relation to time prophecies is: "What difference does it make? If you knew for sure that the end was 10,000 years away, what would you change, and why?" As a Christian I can say that when Jesus returns as no bearing on how I conduct my life. But to a dub it changes everything. If there not in the time of the end, they have no reason to follow the Watchtower, which gets us back to why the GB are constantly flogging the slaves to produce more. Their whole religion depends on it.

  • SwordOfJah
    SwordOfJah

    You have a serious problem AlanF. Since you lost your sense of urgency a long time ago, you have no hope and you don't want anyone else to have hope. So you are desperately using your time on this forum and maybe your life in destroying peoples faith in the words of Christ. Please notice that you are using your wicked reasoning when reading that article instead of getting the point. You try to find exact phrases and words in the Bible that the Watchtower writer uses, of course you don't find them so you assume that Jesus didn't mean this and didn't mean that. But what is the point? The point is that Jesus spoke of being ready. Are you ready? Of course not since you parrot the same thing over and over, there is no sign, there is no sign. Obviously, by your insane reasonings, God has not found you deserving of understanding his ways. That's why you're confused and are so desperate to find fault in his faithful servants that are keeping up the watch.

  • NameWithheld
    NameWithheld

    You have a serious problem Sword. Since you have lost your urgency in preaching about Hank, Hank is going to kick your butt. You just don't want anyone else to know about Hank, and the fact that Hank will give you a million $ when he get's back to town. But only if you kiss Hank's butt. You use your own wicked reasoning when reading Hank's list.

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere
    So you are desperately using your time on this forum and maybe your life in destroying peoples faith in the words of Christ

    He is using his time to help people see the lies and corruption in the WTS. He is not trying to draw people from Christ. The WTS is not Christ. The "Watchtower Bible and Tract Society" is a book publishing corporation that has ruined countless lifes through shunning and murdered countless people through its Blood, Organ Donation, Vaccine, and other medical policies.

    That's why you're confused and are so desperate to find fault in his faithful servants that are keeping up the watch.

    Who is this "faithful servant" and how did you identify him/them?

  • NameWithheld
    NameWithheld

    That's why you're confused and are so desperate to find fault in his faithful servants that are keeping up the watch.

    HA! The only 'watch' I ever see 'loyal' witlesses doing is the watch on the KH clock while praying that Bro Boring doesn't go overtime on his talk again! Or the watch on the dashboard clock to see when it will time for the donut break, so they can quit pretending to knock on doors for 15 mins and have a pastry.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Oh my. The ideal shill magically appears.

    SwordOfJah (LOL!) wrote:

    : You have a serious problem AlanF.

    Not at all. But you do have a serious problem with reading comprehension and especially with Bible comprehension, as I will now demonstrate.

    : Since you lost your sense of urgency a long time ago,

    I lost my sense of urgency to believer Watchtower nonsense for a simple reason: I realized that the Bible contains no calls for anyone to have a sense of urgency. And of course, I no longer believe the Bible, so even if it did contain such a call, it would be of no interest to me.

    : you have no hope

    Oh I have a great deal of hope. Just not the JW La-la-land variety.

    : and you don't want anyone else to have hope.

    Sure I do. I basically don't care what people hope or believe, even if it's for a bad reason. I do care what people do, and I care about damage that results from bad beliefs. Since the Watchtower's calls for urgency, as well as many others of their beliefs, tend to ruin families and lives, I feel that it is my duty to shout from the rooftops what your evil cult is all about.

    : So you are desperately using your time on this forum and maybe your life in destroying peoples faith in the words of Christ.

    You're such a stereotypcial JW moron. I never said a word that could destroy a person's faith in the words of Christ. I said a good deal that could result in people realizing that the Watchtower's claims about the words of Christ are misleading and lead people to be in an unscriptural state of frenzied expectation that "the end" is coming Real Soon Now. Indeed, my words, for Christians, encourage them to keep in expectation -- but not with a sense of urgency. As I took pains to explain, but you failed to comprehend because you have your JW blinders on, keeping in expectation does not require keeping a sense of urgency. Do you need me to explain this simple concept again?

    : Please notice that you are using your wicked reasoning when reading that article instead of getting the point.

    No, I used careful, objective reasoning. You, on the other hand, have given not a shred of reasoning in your reply. You've merely spewed your emotional reaction to having you JW ideals trashed through careful reasoning.

    : You try to find exact phrases and words in the Bible that the Watchtower writer uses, of course you don't find them so you assume that Jesus didn't mean this and didn't mean that.

    No I don't asujme anything. I showed exactly what Jesus said: Keep in expectation. He said nothing about Christians having to believe, for 2000 years, that "the end is just around the corner". It is you JWs who make unwarranted and grossly stupid assumptions. Your assumptions lead to the conclusion that Jesus was a charlatan, telling his followers to think "real soon now" when he knew all along it was going to be several thousand years off.

    If you have any sense at all, then go right ahead and present Scriptural proof that Jesus required a sense of urgency rather than a sense of expectation. Of course, we know that you can't, because it wasn't in that WT article. And we all know how bad JWs are at thinking for themselves.

    : But what is the point? The point is that Jesus spoke of being ready.

    Right. And being ready is not expecting that a thing will happen right away -- it is expecting that it will happen at any time at all -- just as Jesus said. Obviously you reject the words of Jesus.

    : Are you ready?

    Yes.

    : Of course not since you parrot the same thing over and over, there is no sign, there is no sign.

    No one needs a "sign" to be ready. Indeed, Jesus explained clearly that his followers were not to pay attention to supposed signs. He said, "Be ready at all times." Therefore a "sign" would not be in line with Jesus' instructions.

    It astounds me that JWs are so far gone in their thinking that they believe that Jesus said there would a set of "signs" that his followers would see, and then conclude that they should then and only then get ready. He said, "[b]Always be ready[b/]" Which words don't you understand?

    : Obviously, by your insane reasonings,

    I think readers can conclude for themselves who is presenting insane reasonings.

    : God has not found you deserving of understanding his ways.

    You've taken over God's and Jesus' positions as judges, now? Yet another typical JW thing to do.

    : That's why you're confused

    Moi? Confused? Nope.

    : and are so desperate

    Not desperate. Just enjoying myself seeing morons like you squirm in the face of Scriptural and other reasoning you can't refute.

    : to find fault in his faithful servants that are keeping up the watch.

    The fact that JW leaders have so consistently misled their followers for 120 years, and have consistently failed in their predictions, and have consistently failed to teach their followers how to think but have substituted blind obedience for thinking, shows where the fault lies. Face it, SwordFish, you're in a cult. Your cult leaders have lied to you and you're so braindead you have no conception of it.

    Try reading with comprehension for once. Your mind will expand and you'll find thinking for yourself an amazingly refreshing experience! Instead of being such a dull Sword, you'll be a sharp one, and perhaps even consistent with your handle!

    AlanF

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    When Jehovah created the world, he stopped to say "it is good". When he was finished, he took a holiday. He instituted rest as a holy event, so we would never forget the good thing He did when He created this world. As Jehovah's creations, we must sleep regularly, or risk insanity.

    When is a Witness ever good enough? When can it's members ever stop and take a break?

  • SwordOfJah
    SwordOfJah

    AlanF you are really insane dude!

    I asked you if "You were ready?" and then you have the audacity of saying "Yes" when you had previously said that you don't even believe the Bible. Pure hypocrisy there. When I was writing my original post to this thread, I predicted to myself exactly how you would answer and you didn't disappoint. As I read your past posts, I can see you love repeating the same dribble over and over, then you pat yourself in the back saying "no one can refute me". You are not a humble person and your own posts in the past demonstrates that so you will never accept anything a JW says not even if Jesus himself came down and explained it to you. I know you don't care what I say or anyone else, you are full of yourself to worry about anything else. The sad part is that since no human being can convince you of the validity of the Bible as being the word of God, you force him to take action against you and all wicked ones around the earth, and he will. I would quote the Bible, but you know it all. :(

    Edited by - swordofjah on 8 January 2003 15:23:45

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