Paradise: in Heaven or on Earth?

by artful 35 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  onacruse

  As far as the term "paradise" in the OT, it is merely a matter of translation. The LXX uses paradeisos over 2 dozen times (Gen 2:8, 9, 10, 15, 16; 3:1, 2, 3, 8, 10, 23, 24; 13:10; Num 24:6; 2 Chron 33:20; Neh 2:8; Eccl 2:5; Cant 4:13; Isa 1:30; 51:3; Jer 29:5; Ezek 28:13; 31:8, 9; Joel 2:3).

  Insofar as the NT concept of "paradise" is concerned, the majority of commentators identify it with heaven, but I found a couple of interesting comments:

  On Lk 23:43--

  Barnes:

  It is to be remarked that Christ says nothing about the place where it should be, nor of the condition of those there, excepting that it is a place of blessedness, and that its happiness is to commence immediately after death (see also Php 1:23)...

  Calvin:

  We ought not to enter into curious and subtle arguments about the place of paradise. Let us rest satisfied with knowing that those who are engrafted by faith into the body of Christ are partakers of that life, and thus enjoy after death a blessed and joyful rest, until the perfect glory of the heavenly life is fully manifested by the coming of Christ.

  On 2 Cor 12:4--

  Gill:

  Clemens Alexandrinus reads the words thus, "I knew a man in Christ caught up to the third heaven, kakeiyen eiv ton paradeison, from thence to paradise"; and so Theophilact upon the place says, "from the third heaven he was immediately called up into paradise"; and so Oecumenius, "he was caught up unto the third heaven, and so again from thence into paradise"; and some modern writers have been inclined to think there were two raptures, and the rather inasmuch as the apostle is said to be caught "up to" the one, and caught "up into" the other,

  Robertson:

  Some Jews (Book of the Secrets of Enoch, chapter viii) make Paradise in the third heaven. The rabbis had various ideas (two heavens, three, seven). We need not commit Paul to any "celestial gradation" (Vincent).

  On Rev 2:7--

  People's New Testament Notes:

  Since the tree of life is found in both, Paradise and the New Jerusalem must mean the same. Paul uses the term as a synonym of the "Third Heaven," or Heaven itself (2Co 12:2-4).

  I ain't gonna worry about. If I get there, then I'll know where it is.

  Craig
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  Kenneson

  If Jesus went to prepare a place for his followers, would it not be where he is? If Jesus is in heaven, then wouldn't that be the place? John 14:1-3

  The present earth is not everlasting. Why should it be our hope? Matt. 5:18; Ps. 102:25-26; Is. 51:6; 2 Pet. 3:7, 10-12
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  Solace

  I have thought about this.

  Honestly regardless of biblical proof, I just cant imagine a paradise on earth. I guess its because its so screwed up right now. If given the choice to live forever, I would prefer a more spiritual existance. This fleshly life on earth aint all that its cracked up to be.

  Sassy LB,

  I had a feeling you would be in here. Paradise in Heaven? Hmmm, I guess you will just have to ask my man about that one.
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  JosephMalik

  If Jesus went to prepare a place for his followers, would it not be where he is? If Jesus is in heaven, then wouldn't that be the place? John 14:1-3

  Kenneson,

  Because Jesus is going to come back here in the flesh. Any other doctrine is antichrist. Did you miss Acts 1:11?

  Kenneson said: The present earth is not everlasting. Why should it be our hope? Matt. 5:18; Ps. 102:25-26; Is. 51:6; 2 Pet. 3:7, 10-12

  Because the scriptures only cover mans history to a point just beyond the 1000 years. That is all we need to know right now. Trying to speculate beyond that is a waste of time. I see that you did not provide the proof requested. Can you?

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 2 January 2003 0:34:26
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  LB

  I had a feeling you would be in here. Paradise in Heaven? Hmmm, I guess you will just have to ask my man about that one

  Did you think I was referring to you??????
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  JosephMalik

  onacruse,

  When you see them guessing like this you know they do not understand. This is really a simple and basic teaching of scripture. No one should be this confused as to what our hope in Christ is. But they are confused and are just as bad as the Watchtower when it comes to understanding it.

  Joseph
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  onacruse

  When you see them guessing like this you know they do not understand.

  Joseph, I actually don't see this as guessing. I see it as admission that the matter is by no means so clear as some would like. Rather like whether Adam was created immortal, with everlasting life, or what, or not. After we get done shaving off all the loose edges and culling out the uncertainties, what remains is often too little to support what some consider to be their "faith."

  I don't at all mind living with the uncertainty of my faith. It is, after all, only faith. I'm much more concerned about living in the certainty of reality.

  Craig
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  peacefulpete

  Apparently some very influential Christians of the past were confused as well, as the quotes indicate. The questian is legitimate for the Bible appears to be saying two things.Both earth and heaven are called paradise. I've sad it before ut here it goes again, the Bible displays a obvious transformation of doctrine and sophistication taking place among the jews. Think about it. Even as it reads today it reveals much about how this happened. A typically primitive palestinian cult that offered bloody sacrifices to appease a god who was said to reside in a tent decorated with winged bulls(cherubs) turned into a hellenized philosophy of "salvation through grace." This transformation mirrored that of Mithraism and dozens of other ancient religions. The concept of paradise was thus transformed from simple agricultural bounty to delights of spiritual enlightenment. This too mirrors he teaching of other mystery cults that promised paradise for the devoted.
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  JosephMalik

  Craig,

  I was being nice when I said they were guessing. Some had an immoral soul doctrine to support and their comments show that. Such false teachings are the problem not the scriptures themselves. There is more than enough information in the text to eliminate the uncertainties as you put it but in doing that we may step on some long cherished ideas and that hurts. Most seem more interested in protecting their turf than in truth.

  Joseph
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  artful

  onacruse: Thanks for that additional information regarding the OT use of the word paradeisos in other translations. It is interesting to note that many bible scholars over the years have also struggled with this issue.

  Joseph: I think you are correct in stating that many are afraid to consider new ideas as this may "step on some long cherished ideas and thathurts". I personally do not consider myself in this category as my "long cherished" ideas were squashed years ago when I exited the WTS. I am currently building up a new faith based on scripture and very much appreciate new ideas like yours. Since we have discussed this issue elsewhere (see link above), I won't go into the specific problems I have with your reasoning, however, I would like to continue a point that onacruse made:

  The very fact that there is no general consensus on this paradise issue may indicate that there is not enough evidence to say for a certainty what the real truth will be. Since sometimes the scriptural "proofs" for our individual faiths may not be iron clad, I think we need to be cautious about suggesting that anyone who does not see it our way is preaching an "antichrist" doctrine. For instance, Joseph, I know that some like to cite Acts 1:11 as "iron clad" proof that Jesus would return to Earth in the flesh: however, it could also be argued in light of other scriptures that refer to Christians reaching out for heavenly "citizenship", that Jesus "throne" is located in heaven etc. that Acts 1:1 could be understood to mean that Jesus return would be in Spirit with some sort physical manifestation ("as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.").

  Not to get into a discussion on the return of Christ...my point is that by extracting our own "proof" scriptures and then insisting that our view is correct when presented with scriptural evidence that suggests a contrary view (when interpreted differently than we do), we are in danger of being as dogmatic as the WTS. Maybe, this paradise issue could be considered in the same way that you suggested regarding "after the 1000 years"...when you wrote "Trying to speculate beyond that is a waste of time". In other words, these "speculation" points make for some interesting discussions, but are in no way strong enough to be considered "basic scriptural truths".

  Artful