Help on translation of Lord/Jehovah in NWT

eyeslice

I am having great trouble with distinguishing between where the NWT refers to Jehovah in the NT and where it should really read Lord meaning, not God, but the Lord; Jesus. The problem comes to light in a passage quoted in this weeks Watchtower study.

The passage in question was Romans 14:8, though you really have to read verse 9 as well to a better flavour of what Paul was talking about.

In the NWT, the passage reads;

8. for both if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. Therefore both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah. 9. For to this end Christ died and came to life again, that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living.

Other translations, which do not attempt to substitute Gods name, render the passage along the lines of;

8. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; or whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. (NIV)

Hopefully, you can see my problem. I f I just consult, either the Emphatic Diaglott or The Kingdom Interlinear, the original Greek is simply Kyrios, Lord. How can I tell when the writer is referring to God and when he is referring to Christ? I can see problems here with those who believe in the trinity, it would be easy to say God and Christ are one, so it doesnt matter!

I have done a search on the site and found some interesting threads on the substitution of Jehovah for Lord in the NWT, e.g. one between Joseph-Stephen Bonnano and a professor Jason BeDuh, but they dont really address my more simple question of how can I tell who is being spoken about.

Edited by - eyeslice on 22 December 2002 13:52:27

artful

eyeslice: I think in the specific case you cite the answer seems self-revealing. The NWT has obviously inserted Jehovah (by their own admission - see footnote in NWT Reference Bible) and clouded the issue. When a proper translation is presented (NIV) it seems plain that throughout the entire scripture, the "Lord" that Paul is referring to leads us to Jesus who is to be "Lord of both the dead and the living".

As to trying to determine in other scriptures who is being referred to (God or Jesus), I think each scripture would have to be analyzed individually and/or in combination with supporting scriptures.

Cheers
Artful

Earnest

eyeslice:

In most instances where the NWT uses Jehovah in the NT it is a passage or expression from the OT where the tetragammaton does appear. In some cases it is quite clear-cut because it says "as it is written" or something to that effect. However, that is not the case in the example you give and so a consideration of the whole passage may be helpful.

14:3,4 "Let the one eating not look down on the one not eating, and let the one not eating not judge the one eating, for God has welcomed that one. Who are you to judge the house servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah [kyrios] can make him stand."

14:6 "He who observes the day observes it to Jehovah [kyrio]. Also, he who eats, eats to Jehovah [kyrio], for he gives thanks to God; and he who does not eat does not eat to Jehovah [kyrio], and yet gives thanks to God."

It is talking about not judging on the matter of food and drink. As you can see from vss 3-6 below, the context is that we shouldn't judge because God has welcomed such a one (whatever he eats). It is reasonable that kyrios in verse 8 also refers to God. However, I must agree that there is some ambiguity in this passage.

Earnest

onacruse

In most instances where the NWT uses Jehovah in the NT it is a passage or expression from the OT where the tetragammaton does appear.

Earnest, I strongly beg to differ with you on this. Robert Countess (The Jehovah's Witnesses' New Testament) has compiled a list of occurences of "Jehovah" in the NWT Greek Scriptures (p. 104), as compared to the original Hebrew text, if applicable. The summary, for all 237 places where NWT has "Jehovah" in the NT:

39 places where "Jehovah" is based on a Tetragrammaton reading

198 places where "Jehovah" is NOT based on any relevant text.

84% of the "Jehovah's" in the NWT Greek Scriptures are totally arbitrary.

Craig

PS: eyeslice, your question piqued my desire to do something I've wanted to do for some time now...complete a comprehensive analysis of "Jehovah" in the NWT Greek Scriptures that would make a "difference." I am working on it right now. Thanks for bringing up this question.

Edited by - onacruse on 22 December 2002 17:26:20

Earnest

Robert Countess (The Jehovah's Witnesses' New Testament) has compiled a list of occurences of "Jehovah" in the NWT Greek Scriptures (p. 104), as compared to the original Hebrew text, if applicable. The summary, for all 237 places where NWT has "Jehovah" in the NT:
39 places where "Jehovah" is based on a Tetragrammaton reading
198 places where "Jehovah" is NOT based on any relevant text.

Craig (aka 425IQL2M8IVrAYnLR/ubXQ):

Some years ago I checked each passage where the NWT uses 'Jehovah' in the NT and remember that in the majority of cases I was convinced that there was OT support for the rendering. I do not have Countess' book but have another one which is also critical of the NWT, namely The Tetragrammaton and the Christian Greek Scriptures by Lynn Lundquist. Appendix B is a Comparison of 237 "Jehovah" References and has several columns of interest.

The pertinent figures are:

92 places where "Jehovah" is based on a Hebrew Scripture quotation using the divine name.

20 places where "Jehovah" is based on a Hebrew Scripture quotation referring to the divine name.

64 places where "Jehovah" is based on a cross reference to the Hebrew Scriptures.

61 places with no quotation or reference to the Hebrew Scriptures.

While I have not checked every citation the figures look roughly correct to me and are clearly not the same as Countess. One area where they may differ is when it comes to OT expressions. Nowhere in the OT do you get the expression "angel of the Lord". It is always "angel of Jehovah" or "Jehovah's angel". So when the expression occurs in the NT there is justification for treating it the same. Similarly, you do not get the expression "Lord God" in the OT. But you do get "Jehovah God" many times. And there are others.

There are a few scriptures where I did not think the evidence justified using 'Jehovah' in the NT but in the majority of cases I have been convinced it is warranted. This evening I must finish an essay on evidence from the Jewish 'History of Jesus' (Toledoth Yeshu) that Jesus used the name.

Earnest

Edited by - Earnest on 22 December 2002 18:30:39

JeffT

The translators of the NWT based their insertion of "Jehovah" into the NT on Hebrew translations of the text. Wherever the Hebrew versions used the tetragramaton the NWT uses Jehovah. This practice is not supported by any Greek text of the scriptures. A look at one verse in particular shows up the biased manner in which they did this. I don't have access at the moment to my source for this (the Seattle Library is closed until after the holidays for budget reasons, but I'll find it), but if they had followed their own rules consistently, 1 Corinthians 12:3 would read "No one can say Jesus is Jehovah except by Holy Spirit."

Earnest

Jeff:

The use of Hebrew translations simply shows there are others who also use the divine name in the NT. In the discussion on the use of 'Jehovah' the explanation is given that "we have looked for agreement from the Hebrew versions to confirm our rendering". NWT, 1984, p.1565.

So the rendering isn't based on the Hebrew versions but if they concur then that is shown in the footnotes. In my opinion, the use of the Hebrew versions is misleading to the casual reader and adds very little weight to the use of the divine name.

Edited by - Earnest on 22 December 2002 18:46:10

onacruse

Earnest, thanks for the info from The Tetragrammaton and the Christian Greek Scriptures. I don't have that in my library. The differences between Lundquist and Countess are too obvious to ignore, so I just completed a front-to-back re-examination of all 237 occurences of "Jehovah" in the NWT Greek Scriptures, referencing the NIV Study Bible for footnoted confirmation of clear OT quotations. The count comes up between our two sources:

83 where there was a clear enough reference to identify the OT source

154 where no direct reference is evident

Even if we grant that OT justification is sufficient reason to warrant this use of "Jehovah" in the NT (a point that is by no means generally conceded), that still leaves 65% of these occurences without any such justification.

Taking the next step, to include Hebraisms and speculations about common usage as sufficient justification, goes so far beyond the proper arena of direct translation that it dosn't earn a place in this discussion (imho).

In my opinion, the use of the Hebrew versions is misleading to the casual reader and adds very little weight to the use of the divine name.

I appreciate your objectivity on this point.

eyeslice, Considering your initial question, and in view of what Earnest says about "angel of the Lord," I would ask: Would it make a difference to you if every place in the NWT Greek Scriptures has "angel of Jehovah" it said, instead, "angel of the Lord"? Perhaps then allowing for the meaning "angel of Jesus"? It makes a difference to me!

Craig

NewLight2

Here is a link that might help you:

The Name "Jehovah" in the New World Translation

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7831/jehovah.html

Moxy

youll also find a ton of references here:

http://home.europa.com/~lynnlund/itmidx2.htm

some have a bit of an evangelical bent, but it contains some thorough documentation. incidently, they cite 115 of the 237 instances of jehovah as having OT precedence.

mox

Help on translation of Lord/Jehovah in NWT

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