History doomed to repeat itself...

by Reborn2002 67 Replies latest jw friends

  • Focus
    Focus

    Heathen wrote:

    I say round em up and send them all back ///grin///

    1. Who? Taking 500 or 5,000 years ago as being a suitably distant starting point, you get the same set of people to round up: EVERYONE except the Native American peoples. So I guess it must be the Native Americans who carry out the (final) rounding-up. Unfortunately, there are not too many of them, Genocide having been an Unwritten Principle upon which the Great Land was founded. Right?
    2. Send back to where?
    3. And bearing precisely what?

    I see little difference in the rights between sundry sets of immigrants and their descendants. By all accounts, "man" (now here's another thing) wasn't there when the Native Americans came in via the North, so they get finders' rights. It follows that all others descended from either those who:
    (a) forced themselves in; or
    (b) were let in by those who are the descendants of those who forced themselves in
    are interlopers, worthy of expulsion.

    For the dull-witted: I am not actually advocating this. I am advocating TOLERANCE.

    Those "Christians" who attack large sections of the followers of Islam for advocating, or not sufficiently opposing, intolerance within their own community are displaying an appalling ignorance about the history of "Christianity" over the last couple of millennia, pretty much right up to the present day in historical terms. The Crusades and the Inquisition are but the popularly known examples of recent "Christian" love: there are many more. And the Holocaust was perpetrated by an "advanced" "Christian" nation and its (almost exclusively) "Christian" stooges.

    Each of these big religions is as bad as the others. For either extianity or slamology to claim moral superiority over the other is idiocy. When extians do so, their demonstrable hypocrisy makes it easier for slamologic terrorist-recruiters to do their job.

    TOLERANCE, and love of one's fellow man.

    Those who spout bigotry take note.

    --
    Focus
    (Primo Levi Class)

    Edited by - Focus on 19 December 2002 16:59:8

  • roybatty
    roybatty
    Why are those of Hispanic, Irish, Japanese, African, and every other ethnicity who decide to move to America not treated this way on such a wide scale? Immigrants from those countries who agree to comply and go register and are then thrown in detainment? Hasn't happened. Want to explain that one? I didn't think so.

    I haven't read enough information on this yet but there is one HUGE difference to keep in mind. Here in America, even right here in Chicago, there are Muslim schools and organizations that are anti-American. While you might not find a class where young Muslims are taught to fly planes into high rise buildings you will find school books with anti-American rhetoric. With other ethinic groups I haven't seen such anti-American sentiment.

    Also, keep a couple of other things in mind. One, the hijackers of 9/11 came here through legal means. It's likely that others are here via the same means. Two, we're at war. During WWII Japanese Americans (who were American citizens) were placed in camps. I believe here we're talking about non-American citizens.

    It's always easy to point out the flaws. How would you suggest the FBI and other law-efforcement agencies uncover these terrorist cells before they strike? Even with 20/20 hidesight, how would you have caught the 9/11 terrorist while keeping their civil liberties untouched?

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    Actually I did read it thank you very much. Please refrain from the ad hominem attacks targeting the person and not the topic at hand. Diversionary tactics irritate me and anyone else interested in rational discussion.

    Oh, puh-leese! I didn't call you a fool or an idiot, or other words that Simon might object to. There was no ad hominem attack. Pardon me for concluding that you hadn't read the article, after seeing you state as fact that the ones arrested were, in fact, American citizens, when the article clearly said that they were not. Or because you stated that they had been arrested simply because they were of Arab descent, when the article clearly stated that they had violated the law. OK, you read the article. I can therefore come to one of only two possible conclusions: either you are lacking in reading comprehension skills, or you deliberately distorted what the article said in order to make your point. Which is it?

    The fact is, these immigrants demonstrate a willingness to cooperate by complying and registering and are subsequently detained and thrown in a prison cell?

    So, the fact that they willingly cooperated with one area of the law means that they should not be penalized for breaking another part of it? If you go to the police station to pay a parking ticket, and while you're there, they discover that there's an outstanding warrant on you, you will certainly be arrested. Your willingness to cooperate by paying the ticket won't weigh in your favor with regard to the other issue. These people had broken the law. Some of them were actually wanted for crimes. Others - like some of the 9/11 terrorists - had overstayed their visas. All were from countries known to support terrorism, and none have a right to be in the United States.

    I find it ironic that thusfar it has been reported that this has only happened to those of Arabic descent.

    Why do you find it ironic? Virtually every terrorist act directed against our country has been carried out by persons of Arabic descent. Should we start watching them now, or after they inflict even more damage? If the terrorist acts were being carried out by Norwegians, I'd want them watched instead - but they aren't. I'm not saying that we should find all the Arab-Americans and lock them away, only that the government should increase scrutiny and be very careful about foreign nationals from countries known to support terrorism who are in our country and breaking its laws.

    Why are those of Hispanic, Irish, Japanese, African, and every other ethnicity who decide to move to America not treated this way on such a wide scale?

    Perhaps because people of their nationality aren't engaging in widespread acts of terrorism against our country? Perhaps because thay haven't destroyed any of our buildings or killed large numbers of our citizens?

    the public is afraid, much like the general public was afraid of the Japanese-Americans who were detained during WWII simply because they were Japanese. Yet you seem to condone this racist behavior.

    Frankly, if there were Japanese nationals in the USA during World War II who were here illegally, or who were committing crimes while they were here, I'd have said, yeah, lock 'em up! But I find what really did happen - which was in no way similar to the recent events that you are complaining about - to be appalling. Citizens of the United States were locked up simply because of their ancestry. That is unacceptable. If law-abiding Arab-Americans, citizens of the United States, were being detained simply because of their ethnicity, I'd be screaming just as loudly as you are.

    I might add that I find it interesting that you consider my concluding - on the basis of what you wrote - that you had not read the article before posting to be an ad hominem attack, but that your directly accusing me of "condoning racist behavior" is not.

    Suburbanite white males attack America = why aren't young white males being rounded up?

    I think it would be just great if all young white males who are in our country illegally and committing crimes were rounded up. As far as I know, it is the government's policy to arrest such persons as they are found. In building your case, you were able to name exactly two white suburban males who engaged in terrorism or related acts. Of the two, one was a young man so sympathetic to the cause of our enemies that he converted to their religion, joined their terrorist cell, moved to their country, and ultimately took up arms against fellow Americans. Are you saying that persons who do that should not be punished?

    Again, we do not have a situation here in which all persons of Arabic descent are being rounded up into internment camps - as much as you would seem to like to make it look that way. These people are not Citizens. They do not have a right to be here. They hail from countries known to support terrorism against us. And they are violating our laws. They ought to be arrested, and they have been. To say that we shouldn't do that unless we can also round up everybody else from every racial or ethnic group who is also here illegally or is violating the laws, is like saying that unless we can give tickets to everybody who speeds on the highway, we shouldn't give out any tickets at all. The government's resources are limited, and they are wisely being focused on the groups who have demonstrated the most potential to do us harm.

    Another related topic, this course of action may well backfire. As joanna brought out, rounding up Muslims like this will serve to only rally more people to their cause. This could easily be used as a propaganda tool to support the claim of jihad against the infidels who mistreat Muslims. (not that I agree with this, but undoubtedly it will happen)
    While I think your point may have some validity, it seems to me that the groups bent on our destruction have already decided that they hate us and want us dead. I think we need to focus on defending ourselves against them, not on wringing our hands about whether we might make them even madder.
  • Xander
    Xander

    people who were rounded up are from countries that are known to support terrorism

    And, this is EXACTLY the wrong reason to do something.

    If someone breaks a law - they SHOULD be arrested. Not checked to see if they come from a country supporting terrorism or not. That's just stupid - MOST people coming from such a country are FLEEING the governments that use terrorism as an instrument of national policy.

    And note, I'm not saying that things like profiling at airport security is wrong (really, strip searching grannies only because they were the 20th person is line is just silly). But, ARREST, that's something different. Inconveniencing an anonymous someone just because they are more likely to be a terrorist is bad, but necessary, IMHO.

    ARRESTING one group more than others, throwing them in jail, etc just because they are more likely to be a terrorist is NOT fine.

    If they want to arrest every illegal immigrant (and the US *certainly* has the manpower to do it if they wanted to), then fine, more power to them. They really SHOULD do that. But, don't pick the laws to enforce or not based on nationality or religion.

  • roybatty
    roybatty

    Excellent post Neon. One wonders what the world would be like today if we had some of todays leaders back in WWII.

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    if your target is to remove "terrorists" then you might as well round up Americans as well, how else will you stop the Tim McVeighs?

    So far, there has been only one Tim McVeigh, and, yes, it was a terrible act. And he was arrested and ultimately executed for it. But there have been scores of terrorist attacks against America and its allies by persons of Arabic descent from certain countries. So, yes, I think there is reason to give increased scrutiny to foreign nationals from those countries.

    there are more groups than just muslims who dislike American Politcs and would like nothing more than to cause trouble.

    Again, that's true. Obviously, we can't read the future so as to take action against groups who might give us trouble in the future. But we can act against those who have already done so. We must, if our freedoms and way of life are to be preserved.

    I'm also saying what's to stop Terrorists from doing it the legal way? Get your citizenship, lay low, build a bomb, beat the system.

    Well, that's possible. As Michael Corleone said, "You can kill anyone". If they want to do it badly enough, they may well find a way. But that doesn't mean we have to be stupid about it, and allow those who are already here illegally and/or breaking the law to continue what they're doing, because of some misguided sense of racial fairness.

    No you're right, it's not the cubans and haitians who destroyed the towers or damaged the pentagon. But the reason they detained these people was beacause they broke laws. If you're going to detain them, and you want to close the boarders, you have to apply it across the board.
    I'm not sure that closing the borders would be such a bad idea, under the circumstances. But, as I said in my comment above, just because you can't catch all the speeders doesn't mean you shouldn't stop any.
  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    people who were rounded up are from countries that are known to support terrorism

    And, this is EXACTLY the wrong reason to do something.

    If someone breaks a law - they SHOULD be arrested

    Well, your selection of quote from me is misleading. I didn't say that everyone from those countries should be arrested just because that's where they're from (though I think added scrutiny is warranted). The people in question did break the law. And they were arrested. So what's the problem?

    MOST people coming from such a country are FLEEING the governments that use terrorism as an instrument of national policy.
    I'm sure that's true. But a few are not, and they are the ones causing the problems. Again, I think that increased scrutiny is in order, and if we do catch them committing a crime, then they should be arrested and dealt with accordingly
  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    Just because a spokesman from a government agency says something doesn't automatically make it correct.

    True, of course. But we are discussing the article that Reborn posted, and that's what it says. Obviously, any of us could find his or her opinion changed should differing facts come to the surface.

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    Excellent post Neon. One wonders what the world would be like today if we had some of todays leaders back in WWII.

    I suspect we'd all be wearing swastikas and speaking German.

    Which, again, is the whole point. If we fail to preserve our nation, then all this arguing about rights and freedoms and equality will become moot. These things are our national heritage. If America is destroyed, none of us will have them.

  • BeautifulGarbage
    BeautifulGarbage

    Quoted from the article provided by Reborn:

    It is a shock. You don't expect this to happen. It is really putting fright and apprehension in the community. People who come from these countries -- this is what they expect from their government. Not from America," said Sabiha Khan of the Southern California chapter of the Council on American Islamic Relations.

    (Italics and bold added)

    Just a side note. The Council on American-Islamic Relations was a major source of fundraising for Islamic Extremists in the 1990s. The money raised right here in the US and funneled the funds to groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

    Any comment from them I would consider dubious.

    Andee

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit