by MrMoe 139 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
FiveShadows
Thank you for for that Number 2 talk
your introduction was of proper length and use of illustrations were good as well- your conclusion tied everything together in a now bow, and your time was just 4 sec short so that was good as well
we look forward to your next talk as it wll be your first in the main auditorium
How was it even a sacrifice-let alone a ransom? Both of those terms require giving something up. Nothing was ever given up. If giving up his son for 30 or so years in the face of eternity was a sacrifice, what does that say about His maturity level. A true sacrifice or ransom would be paid out permanently with no hope of it ever being returned. Givng Jesus up, never to exist agian-in flesh or in spirit-is what those terms require.
And if Jesus and G-d are one and the same....still how is it a sacrifice?
Shoshana
Before this he never had manifested any of these traits. He became 'unclean' in the sight of God, and did not practice the fruitage of the spirit. This resulted in Death entering into the world. But God showed mercy as He can upon anyone whom He choses to do so and provided 'The Way' for all to attain everlasting life.
God showed mercy, eh? Seems like it would've been a lot more "merciful" if he wiped the slate clean right then and started all over. The way to everlasting life cost billions of miserable lives through the years - what kind of mercy is THAT?
He could drown the whole planet in the flood, but couldn't wipe out Adam & Eve and restart? Go frikkin figure. Gosh, these topics are SO interesting because I'm realizing more and more how much of the Bible really doesn't make sense.
And the bible will never make sense for those who hold that their own logic is superior to God's. God's love required that free will be allowed to run it's course. That free will sometimes causes suffering. I don't pretend to understand it all, but I'd rather be where I am in my faith than in the bleakness of an existence where there is no God, no Purpose, and no Hope. With the JW's they have a concept of God, though still no purpose and no real hope (I'd be bored to tears after 100 years on earth, much less ETERNITY WITH NO RIBEYE STEAK>
Fiveshadows -
What proof do you have that what you said is true? I am spiritual yes, but require proof for everything, inclusing my personal beliefs.
You put your faith in a book written by dudes who rode camels thousands of years ago. You know when I first left the borg I was a jesus fruit, too. Then the kind folks here make me realize that aspect of me was still half whacked out -- fruity to say the least. Use ur brain dude. Your wonderful god likes death and slaughter. Noah's flood... he even drowned small children. He had babies ripped out of thier mother's womb, dashed on rocks, all at the hands of his "rightous" people.
EXAMPLES OF WHY YOUR GOD IS BLOOD THIRSTY:
Second Kings, we learn that Menahem, leader of the Israelites, smote all the people who refused to follow him and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up (2 Kings 15:16).
Later, in Hosea, we learn that because the land of Samaria rejected God, Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up (Hosea 13:16).
Hosea decided to carry out Gods vengeance on the people by killing the unborn babies carried by the heathen women. He promised to slay even the beloved fruit of their womb (Hosea 9:16).
It was God who killed all the unborn children on the planet (other than those of Noahs immediate family) when He drowned everyone with the Great Flood (Genesis 7:23).
And it was God who inflicted abortion on all the pregnant women when he rained fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah, killing everyone who lived therein (Genesis 19:24-25).
According to Deuteronomy, if a child is unruly and disobedient, we not only have the option of killing him, but it is mandatory that he be stoned to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). The same is true for a child who speaks to us with foul language (Exodus 21:17). Or a child who hits us (Exodus 21:15).
God will use fire, plagues and beasts to kill sinners (FYI WE ALL FREAKING SIN,) and what did he say "good" Christians will do? "Shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another" (Revelation 11:10).
Edited by - MrMoe on 8 December 2002 18:34:16
The proof I have is the Bible. It was not written by "some dude" it was God breathed which inspired men to write it down in words.(2Tim. 3:16) How can you be "spiritual" and need proof for everything? You need faith-trusting in something, though you might not see it. For example- is there a Japan? Yes. How do you know? Have you ever been there? (If so, replace Japan with somewhere you have not been) No you haven't. But, you believe it's there. Interesting...
Adam sinned. You agree. Therefore cursing the entire human race. Now, don't be asking "well, why!? etc..." Just accept it, cuz you know it's true. So because Adam sinned, we also are sinful from birth. Our own nature is evil, and the intention of our heart is wicked (Jer. 17:9). Everyone deserves a just punishment for their own sin. That punishment is Hell, eternal misery, eternal separation from God, etc... But, God being rich in mercy sent His only Son to live a perfect life as a man on this sinful earth.
Then you said "Why didn't God be more merciful and save everyone?" (Look up mercy in the dictionary.)He could, but He didn't. One reson being- when people are in Hell that glorifies Him. "How?" Because that is His wrath being satisfied and poured out on unworthy sinners. God is a just God and gives each action its right punishment. That is why Jesus had to be human, fully human, yet fully God. He had to be so that sinners might be perfectly redeemed.
God... blood thirsty? I don't think so! As said before, we all deserve Hell. God is sovereign He can do whatever He pleases. (Ps. 115:3) They deserve Hell anyways, right?
Well, just letting you know and I hope you believe it, because if you don't- you are denying your creator. The Mighty God. The eternal Father. And if you haven't truly repented of your sins, turned to follow Christ with your whole heart, then His wrath sure will be satisfied with you...
How can you be "spiritual" and need proof for everything? You need faith-trusting in something, though you might not see it. For example- is there a Japan? Yes. How do you know? Have you ever been there? (If so, replace Japan with somewhere you have not been) No you haven't. But, you believe it's there. Interesting...
this is one lousy example/illustration and you know it. There's more than ample evidence of the existence of countries on the earth. One does not have to "see" it literally to know it exists. The only way it couldn't exist is if we're all part of some "matrix" mind-programming scenario.
I have a problem with all of us being born into sin, thus deserving death. What the HECK is up with that? If a criminal convicted to life in prison gives birth to a son while she's in prison, does he automatically deserve life in prison too??!?!
(That's how you use illustrations)
I do not deny a Creator, I'm just waiting for the time when He makes himself known clearly. History and religion is too tainted nowadays by the words of man to know the real truth. We have a good idea of what the truth is....time will tell. I live a good life, do good to others, respect the earth and fellow beings to the best of my ability - if I'm damned to hell for THAT, than so be it. I don't want to be a part of a system where such actions are deemed as sin. I would think a loving God would understand how twisted the truth has become down through the years.
I have a problem with all of us being born into sin, thus deserving death. What the HECK is up with that? If a criminal convicted to life in prison gives birth to a son while she's in prison, does he automatically deserve life in prison too??!?!
I said that to support my other statement further above about how it would seem a lot more logical to me to start over from the start instead of watching your originally perfect creation turn out imperfect over and over and over again, watching them suffer, fight and die day after day after day for thousands of years. Just to prove a point. ??
Maybe God's logic clears this issue up. But until I hear that logic explained to me, it's difficult to accept what you've stated above.
God... blood thirsty? I don't think so! As said before, we all deserve Hell. God is sovereign He can do whatever He pleases. (Ps. 115:3) They deserve Hell anyways, right?
Well, just letting you know and I hope you believe it, because if you don't- you are denying your creator. The Mighty God. The eternal Father. And if you haven't truly repented of your sins, turned to follow Christ with your whole heart, then His wrath sure will be satisfied with you...
2. Unconditional Election- Because men are such sinners, we cannot choose God. Therefore, God must choose us, not on anything good we have done. (Because we do NO good) God did not look ahead and choose us based on any good works. He did it based on His will. He predestined His elect to salvation before the foundation of the world.
5. Perseverence of the Saints- True Believers cannot lose their salvation. If God did choose you, then He cannot "un-choose" you. If you did "fall away from the faith" then you were never really in it.
Re: your http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=41829&site=3 thread. Does she have a choice?
Are you threatening her? I am so sick of religious fanatic bullshit. This kinda crap is'nt much better than the fundamentalist islam crap that is causing all the trouble now. Yes, calvinist, you have proven by your own statements that he picks & chooses who he wants to kill, innocent children included, like some crazy cosmic chess game w/ satan. Duh. If he exists he is a blood thirst monster. Easily as bad as satan because he created the whole scenario according to your twisted "logic"
Edited by - avishai on 8 December 2002 19:30:18
This topic certainly deserves the flaming folder next to it.
Here's my 2 cent theological exposition:
When the original pair sinned, they broke a mystical connection they had between themselves and God. That's why they slowly died, diconnected from their life source. None of the children they had were born with this connection, so all slowly die. However - Jesus was sent and through God';s power was born with this connection - a connection that had to be withdrawn during his final hours for him to die; hence his cry, "Father, why have you forsaken me?"
Now, to restore that connection for imperfect creatures like us, who did not ask to be born this way and thus can be shown mercy, someone has to fix it. Jesus has been given the power and opportunity to fix it, and "he has learned obedience through the things he has suffered." His mission here was as much for him to learn about being human, as it was for us to learn about being divine. He knows our pain, confusion, spiritual agonies. He has eaten, drank, been thirsty and confused and tempted, has shit and been in love - he knows it all. So he has been fully trained in HOW TO BE WILLING TO SHOW MERCY.
The actual mechanics of fixing that connection are beyond our comprehension. However, his death was necessary, because he had the RIGHT to live forever as an imperfect human. But metaphorically, he said, "If Czar messes up, I'll die for him." Well, guess what, I messed up and Jesus had to accept that penalty 2000 years ago. And he's done it for each individual that agrees to accept it.
Having undergone that, he was restored to life, which God can do at will. Remember, this ransom is only part of God's plan - which is to fill the earth with the perfect seed of Adam. Having forever given up a human life, Jesus is now our Kiing in charge, temporarily, of bringing us all closer to god. It's a long and difficult journey, but he is now much more merciful than he was when he was leading the Israelites through their wilderness, having tasted the bitter fruits of imperfection.
The original story of the fruit may only be a metaphor, or it might be literal. When you're rebelling against god, one action is as good as another.
But I sense a great deal of contempt in this forum, so I will shut up now, having said my piece.
CZAR
