JW Statistics

ScoobySnax

Ok I'm probably way behind here but I just got the Jan.1st 2003 issue of the WT and was looking at the service report and notice the 2.8% increase wordlwide, as opposed to the 1.7% on the last years report. Many here have posted before that this figure is somehow "fiddled" by the WT and is not accurate due to the new 15 minute rule, how is that? I looked at an independant source www.adherents.com and note that they say the Witnesses are meticulous and known as particularly accurate in their data, and even "conservative" in their estimates of membership compared with other religious groups who tend to inflate their numbers. So whos fibbing here, The WT, an independant religious statistics website, or WT detractors? I'm interested to know. Scott

Amazing

The Watchtowr Society claims to be most accurate, and they allege that other religions inflate and manipulate their numbers. These self-exalting claims are continuously told and repeated among JWs until they believe it ...

When I served as Congregation Secretary I compiled time reports and sent in the report to the Watchtower Society each month ... we often accepted time reports at face value though the Body of Elders often suspected that many JWs in the congregation inflated their reports ...

Also, if a Publisher did not report on time for a given month ... we could not count them as Publishers or their time, but had to wait to report their time and Publisher status the following month ... which, when you account for over 11,000 JW congregations in the USA, means that an increase can be little more than reporting "catch-up" of delayed-reporting by Publishers ... this can also be true when a Congregation reports late, the Society report in the Kingdom Ministry may be in error as well ...

Finally, the 15 minute rule has undoubtedly caused many who were previously "irregular" or "inactive" to be able to report at least some minimal time, thus having a net improvement in the total number of Publishers worldwide ... and this can be part of the seeming "increase" in JWs for the year 2002.

Other religions only count those who are registered members ... this is not based on attendance or other engagement in works programs like Field Service ... when a member moves, dies, or resigns, they are removed from the membership roles ... there are going to be delays and errors made ... but all in all, most religions maintain fairly accurate records ...

When you start a religion and apply for a 501(c)(3) non-profit status ... you must be able to show the Internal Revenue Service that you have a real religious body and not a mere tax dodge ... so records of members and attendance is fairly normal ... this is why JWs keep attendance and Publisher membership records ... to bolster their religious tax-exempt status ... the difference between the Watchtower religion and other forms of Christian religions is that the Watchtower Society make a Holy Sacrament out of record keeping, while other religions make a Holy Sacrament out of showing love, prayer, and song ... the Watchtower religion worships organization ... whereas healthy normal Christian Churches worship God and Christ.

Edited by - Amazing on 7 December 2002 22:59:32

ScoobySnax

Amazing, I think you need to take a look at the website I posted www.adherents.com again under the group "Jehovahs Witnesses". It seems it isn't the WT that make claims to inflate their membership roles, as I said it states that JW records are "known to be precise, reliable and accurate, if even conservative" in their estimates, it does however state that other religious groups count there overall membership on occasional or annual attendance, and on some that may have been baptised into the faith who have since left, as in lapsed Catholics, Protestants etc (inc. even dead Mormon relatives baptised.....ok I made that bit up, but I heard that somewhere!) and I'm not sure how accurate attendance records help to boost tax exept status'......I need another beer

JT

the actually BODY COUNT is in my view pretty much accurate in terms of how many- but the counting of BILLIONS OF HOURS, well that is a story of a different horse-

as a former Society Man when i was at bethel this discussion came up about the hours being correct- you see when the wt counts hours it does say 1,500,000,000 hours o no the wt will say something like 1,507,87,732 hours

yes the exact count, well the dissussion came up with one of the bro who worked the service desk where the time reports come in each month and he was pretty up front,

we asked him why is there NO GUIDELINES ON COUNTING TIME so that everyone knows when to start and stop counting time this way it can be consistence-

you have some who start when they leave the Hall going in service, others when they knock on the first door and others who will sit in the car and wait till it's their turn to take a door and start their time

so we have 3 folks who ALL STARTEd THIER time at different times and therefore how can one "Honestly" say that at the end of the morning ALL 3 HAVE TURNED IN ACCURATE TIME-

SO the boys in service know that friends will ride from one side of the county to the other just to count time or drop off 40 mags at the laundramat and count them all

so while the BODY COUNT IS in my view pretty accurate the rest of the numbers are not

and as mentioned i too was the SEC and the time at the end of the month WAS never accurate

in fact at KM school many SEC would laugh about that fact

so in one sense wt keeps numbers down to the TEE and in other cases they let if float

Monster

as a former Society Man when i was at bethel this discussion came up about the hours being correct- you see when the wt counts hours it does say 1,500,000,000 hours o no the wt will say something like 1,507,87,732 hours

I know this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but what does hours have to do with God? Does he give more blessing to those who put in more work less blessing for those who don't? What's the big deal about how many hours you been out? Will some one explain this to me please.

Peace James

onacruse

I think this whole issue plays right along the lines of Max Weber's The Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism. His work investigates the sociological hypothesis that those who are saved are blessed by God, and the fruitfulness and success of their lives proves that they are of that saved class. Proving that one has received the blessing of success requires tangible evidence (money in the bank, owning of property, etc). That, in turn, is taken as good reason to promote such an individual to and within the church as a demonstrably saved one.

In its own way, for a JW, tabulation of time spent in field service, Bible studies conducted, etc is a similar demonstration of God's approval. I've no doubt that the GB sees it the same way. Considering Knorr's Dutch Protestant background, it makes even more sense.

Craig

Kingpawn

you have some who start when they leave the Hall going in service, others when they knock on the first door and others who will sit in the car and wait till it's their turn to take a door and start their time

I wonder if some of these beancounters work for some of the major corporations "in the news" lately?

Scoob, for a group that overlooks the niggling little detail that Gen. 9:4 doesn't refer to human blood, and therefore the doctrine against blood use is based on a misinterpretation; their insistence on making definite prophecies in total disregard for Matt. 24:36; their stressing works for salvation (contradicting Rom. 4:1-5); the UN debacle; pedophilia; the other scandals; and you're gonna take their word for it on this?

ScoobySnax

J.T thanks for that post, of course the hours "in service" must be difficult to account for as you say, who knows how long a return visit/morning in service may take with a visit to Mcdonalds in between for coffee break may take, and who puts what on their service report. But like you, I agree the actual numbers as in "body count" are accurate, and that does show an increase in the ranks of the JWs, as in new baptisms/bible studies/memorial attendance, versus deaths of JWs/those leaving ratio etc, all verified, regardless of the "15 minute rule" that some quote as an example of WT fabrication to increase apparent numbers.

ScoobySnax

.....and KINGPAWN......... before you start throwing UN Cover-ups/ Blood Issues/Shunning/Paedophillia/Ray Franz/Bill Bowen/WT says in 1926 quotes at me, .....remember I was just trying to ask about the post I read earlier about the "15 minute rule" and how many said that the increase was due to some WT fiddling of numbers. That was the reason for this post. For once try to address the post I made, rather than go on the usual pre-programmed anti JW/WT line. You know yourself, almost everyone agrees with you here on all those other issues you mention, so why bring them into this post? you have nothing to prove to me or them. ok?

nicolaou

Sorry, but even the 'body count' is regularly skewed.

For example;

Smalltown Congregation has 100 publisher cards. Meeting attendances vary but the TMS/SM meeting averages out at an attendance of 86. On the last 'Local Needs' item before the C.O's visit, Smalltowns Secretary gives an 'encouraging' talk extolling the importance of regular meeting attendance.

"We aren't doing too bad brothers. Our midweek attendance is at 86%. I'm sure if we all rely on Jehovah we can reach 100% with his blessing." [Nic' barfs]

It's statistical dishonesty - lies. To attain 100% meeting attendance in a congregation with 100 publisher cards would require attendance of perhaps 250 - 300 individuals. This would allow for all those unbaptised children, babies and occasional D/f reinstatement hopefuls and Bible studies. When my wife and I went to a meeting there'd be 5 of us represented by only 2 Publisher cards, one of which is marked 'inactive'! That's a ratio of 2.5:1 maybe even 5:1.

A meeting attendance of 86 in Smalltown cong represents only about 40% attendance.

I've mentioned this to our own congregation secretary but he continues to report attendance percentages the same way. I flat out told him that this was "less than honest."

His response?

"If the congregation had a cat I'd count that too."

JW Statistics

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