by RR 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
The Society has condemned just about everyone to second death, especially those who have been jusged in the past by Jehovah [Adam, Sodom, flood victims, etc.]
What do you friends say, does the Society have an argument? Are those judged in the past to stay judged and dead?
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Less Religion and more Jesus!
RR,
It seems pretty harsh for all of those imperfect people to merit the 2nd death--the same punishment that Satan and his cohorts receive. But, what does the Bible itself actually say?
A related area is children receiving the 2nd death because of the parents' beliefs at Armageddon. I wrote the WTS long time ago saying this didn't harmonize with Eze. 18 where the whole point is that sons should not be put to death for the father's sin, nor vice versa, but "the soul that is sinning, it itself will die." The reply was it was unwise to say either way. However, the r&f seems to believe kids will die at Armageddon.
How could young "innocents" merit the same punishment as Satan and demons? Never has made sense to me.
Patio
Hi RR
That is a hard question and I have pondered it often. I make no attempt to answer now but wanted to add a tid-bit which may be related to your question. At the time of Jesus death in Matthew 27 (I think) it says the tombs broke open and many of the holy people who had died ,came to life and walked the streets. I often wonder if it was so they could choose or reject the Messiah and later be judged accordingly. As far as the new Testament it looks like the followers of Christ have no fear of the second death.
You pose a good question, I have never specifically looked it up but I do not recall any info on judgement of OT people. You make we want to get the bible out but will do another time. Anyone else know more??????Let us know
RR,
1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
I'll just leave it at that.
TR
Interstingly, Witnesses will seldom admit that they only will survive the battle for souls. They'll always skirt the issue, however when you ask them point blank, they'll admit it by showing Scriptures where certain ones, peoples and nations were judged and put to death.
The question now is, are these "certain ones, peoples and nations " FOREVER dead? Unworthy of a Resurrection? I don't think so! As TR mentioned in his quote 1 Corinthians 15:21-22, Jesus died for ALL, not some, although older versions of the NWT, are rendered that Jesus died for all sorts of men, adding "sorts of".
I believe that the Scriptures do teach that people who live in so-called "judgment Periods" will be resurrected. All final judgment for the world is reserved for the Millennial Judgment Day. Yes, Adam was a sinner and was justly sentenced to death. But so are all of his children.
Romans 3:10 just as it is written: "There is not a righteous [man], not even one.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
If Adam had not sinned, no ransom would be needed. The ransom (corresponding price) consisted of the sacrifice of the perfect man Jesus to redeem the perfect man Adam who had sinned. Incidentally Adam's offspring were condemned and incidentally they are redeemed.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense [judgment] came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act [the] [free] [gift] [came] to all men, resulting in justification of life.
1 Timothy 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Careful research on the above quoted Scriptures will show that in all three of these verses the same Greek word PAS is used. It is also used in Matthew 24:14 "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." In these four instances the New World Translation is inconsistent, rendering it "all" in Matthew 24:14 and in 1 Corinthians 15:22, but "all kinds" in Romans 5:18 and the footnote of 1 Timothy 2:6.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
Matthew 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
This text cannot be understood to contradict the thought of a ransom for all, since in Romans 5:19 The same Greek word "polus" rendered "many" or "all" is used - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous."
I believe that the slaying of animal sacrifices in the Old Testament pointed forward to Christ's sacrifice to cover sins. Since it was God's intention to redeem Adam from death, He provided him with a cost of skin.
Genesis 3:21 And Jehovah God proceeded to make long garments of skin for Adam and for his wife and to clothe them.
There are no Scriptures to show that Adam is excepted from the benefits of the ransom.
Interestingly, although the Society has in the past published commentaries on the book of Exekiel, which they used to show Jehovah's final judgments, the one Chapter that throws out their whole theology on the issue is never quoted. Chapter 16 of that book, shows that Sodom, Gomorrah and many of those destroyed in the past will be resurrected and restored. Of course the way the book was written, jumping from chapter to chapter, with no index, no one would ever know.
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Less Religion and more Jesus!
May you have peace!
Actually, my Lord is recorded to have stated that, to date, only one has been 'judged'... the 'ruler of this world.' Indeed, even the angels that 'forsook their proper dwelling place' have not yet been judged, but are '<i>reserved</i>... for judgment.'
Even Adam, Eve, and Judas have not yet been judged, for there will be a resurrection of the righteous... AND the unrighteous. And it is when that takes place that The Judgment begins. And this Judgment, dear one, is done by God Himself... '<i>after</i> the thousand years have ended'.
<B>Revelation 20:7, 11-15
Daniel 7: 9, 10</B>
Note, this is not the judgment of the 'holy ones', which is done by my Lord and is going on NOW (<B>Revelation 11:1,2</B>), nor is it the judgment of the 'sheep and the goats', which is done by my Lord... AND his brothers... when he returns and bestows upon them their kingdom' (<B>Revelation 20:4, 6; Matthew 24:29, 31, 37-42; 25:31-46</B>)
Although Adam, Eve and Judas 'reaped what they sowed'... 'corruption from the flesh'... and thus death... IN THE FLESH... they have not yet been judged... IN THE SPIRIT. And it is the spirit that must be judged... and condemned... to everlasting destruction. ("Do not fear him that can kill the body (flesh), but be in fear of Him that can destroy the body AND the spirit in Gehenna").
For although the flesh disintegrates and returns to the dust from which it was taken, the spirit returns either to God, from whom it issued (for the righteous), or the the 'world of the dead' (for the unrighteous), where it remains 'asleep'... until it is awakened (resurrected), and granted either everlasting life... or everlasting destruction.
I hope this helped.
Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and a slave of Christ,
SJ
RR, the society has been stating for quite a while now, that billions of dead will be resurrected. I suppose they mean all those nations who were enemies of the Israelites, up till now who have died.
I don't remember the last time they had a discussion on whether or not the people of Sodom and Gomorrah will be resurrected. I rather believe Jesus' words about it anyway. The people of Noah's day? I have been re-thinking that myself. They were, you could say, victims, since the sons of the true God came down, put on fleshly bodies, and wreaked havoc with humankind. So while I won't say they will get a resurrection, I won't say they won't either. It's entirely up to God.
I am also re-thinking Adam's position as well, as you might already know.
Rolando,
I do have another question for you though. I have been reading your thread about the Ekklesia, etc. Do you feel or believe that only baptized ones should receive a heavenly calling?
And those that you do believe will live on earth, do they survive Armageddon to be on that new earth under Christ's adminstration?
rev 20:6 Happy is the first resurrection.
Rev. 20:5
the rest of the dead came to life at the end of a thousand years.
Rev 20:13
... and they were judged individually according to their works!
will works save anyone? man is damned by the law. Jesus did not die in vain. Righteousness is by faith, death is by merrit.
All will get what they have earned, except for those under grace. They will not get what they have earned.
Anyone who was not a Jew in the OT will find themselves being judged like anyone who was not a Christian after the death of Christ. Don't worry if you get what you deserve it was because you weren't a Christian or OT Hebrew.
And no, there are not some ppl who will not be resurrected. It says all of the dead will be resurrected. Some will be resurrected unto life and the rest unto Judgement.
No one will pass through judgement unto life, unless they were perfect.
RR, from what I have read in Russell's writings, Russell believed that all would be resurrected including Adam and Eve. Is that correct? Is that universal salvation?
I have been doing some research on the WTS comments on judgement perioods and resurrection. They seem to teach that 33 CE to 70 CE was a judgment period for the Jews, yet not all of them died. About 97,000 survived, just lucky I guess, not being specifically saved. Are we to believe that none of those who died will be resurrected? The WTS is not clear on this point. Then this is compared to today which implies that not everyone will be "executed" at Armageddon and not necessarily due to being a "true" believer.
Blondie (still researching)
