The Two Witness Rule is NOT THE ISSUE

by jst2laws 51 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

• 

  Perry

  Thanks J2L for bringing this issue up. Everyone has made excellent observations.

  I do believe that the blanket application of the 2 witness rule, while not the primary issue here, does create some authorization problems for the Elders to go to the police.

  Digging even deeper, there is an even more sinister nature to the WT policy. They don't give two s*%ts about their non-jw neighbor. In other words, if they felt a molester was unrepentant.....just DF him. Who cares if he/she continues to molest worldly children? They are all gonna die anyway right? Besides, if people really want truth and safety they would just become JW's and not reject the message.

  An even more fundamental problem for not going to authorities is the ludicrous belief that Christ has been ruling since 1914. They reason, that since that is the case, there is no reason to use the biblical provision of "Ceasars' Sword".

  The bible clearly promotes a far more harmonious relationship between church and state than the WT would like to admit. It clearly allocates various responsibilities to each in liew of Christs' Kingdom. However the WT teaches that the kingdom has already arrived invisibly and that all govts. are now directly controlled by satan. This is a totally screwed up world view and puts total control in the hands of the FD&S...... which is where they always wanted it.

  Biblically, the state had a very important role in Christian life. Through doctrine, the FD&S has stripped the authority of the state and left unchecked would no doubt create just as repressive of a regime as the Taliban in Afganistan. It is high time the state fulfill its biblical role with regards to the WT.

  The whole damn religion is very sick.
• 

  Lady Lee

  Perry I would submit that they don't care about the R&F either. It doesn't matter how they suffer. It doesn't matter if children and wives are abused. All will be fixed in the new system. All justice will take place in "god's due time". All pain will be erased.. later. So basically suffer anything we deem unimportant and leave it all in Jehovah's hands which actually means we won't do anything or can't do anything.

  The whole damn religion is very sick

  yup very sick indeed
• 

  JosephMalik

  jst2laws,

  The two witness rule is used publicly in their defense. Therefore this two witness rule is as much of a problem as their policies and practices on child abuse. It is used as the scriptural authority for their practices.

  Now this does not mean that they put this in print. In fact they can point to articles that say just the opposite when it suits them. This way they can always show lawyers and judges that they are not at fault but that their doctrines or practices were mis-applied at the local level and thus shift the blame to them.

  Crime must be reported to the civil authorities since the scriptures teach that such authorities have jurisdiction over them. Enough material is now available on this board and silent lambs research section to show this conclusively.

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 5 November 2002 5:38:22
• 

  JosephMalik

  Let's say for the sake of argument they got rid of the 2-witness rule.

  Would that enable R&F to go directly to the police?

  Lady Lee,

  Perhaps not due to the indoctrination they get. But if this became WT policy as it should be, then maybe so. And if some elders wake up due to information such as this found on the internet, then maybe they will suggest it privately inspite of the WT's advice to the contrary.

  Joseph
• 

  eisenstein

  jst2laws,

  I was wondering what R&F means...I am new to this website and haven't heard that abbreviation use before.

  Thank You for this post...the whole judicial system of the JWs is very wrong and I have been deeply affected by these imperfect men's decisions ever since I was a child, I have seen tremendous damage done not only to my family, but to others in the congregations I have attended. It is very sad how lives have been wrecked.

  eisenstein
• 

  blondie

  rank and file (the plebes, ordinary folks)

  a military term referring to the common soldier
• 

  Brummie

  eisentien R&F means Rank and File, just another way of saying the normal JWs as opposed to those in authority in the Borg

  Brummie

  edited to add blondie beat me to it...:) that usually happens, start a reply post it only to discover within 2 minutes the whole shebang has been discussed and topic finished.

  Edited by - Brummie on 5 November 2002 10:48:16
• 

  eisenstein

  Thanks, Brummie

  I actually remembered it as I had logged off, and I think I asked the same question before either in the chat room on on another post.
• 

  Brummie

  :) R&F as opposed to the F&D, DO's, CO's, PO's, MS's........

  B
• 

  hawkaw

  So .....

  Both bad ideas but within their realm. The real problem is they should FIRST refer alleged crime to the authorities. FAILURE TO REPORT ALLEGATIONS OF CRIME TO CRIMINAL INVESTIGATORS is the major issue. The 'two witness rule' and how they apply it is a side issue that has caused much harm only because they do not consistently refer criminal acts to government agencies in place to handle them.

  Really, the two-witness rule is a side issue. Well what about in area's where these rapes are reported to the Children's Aid authorities (not the police). The "untrained" elders still call their J.C.s and use the two witness rule to determine guilt or innocence. In those issues if the accused is found NOT guilty by these untrained elders - then the sicko gets to go freely back into the congregation and no one in the congregation can be warned - even if the authorities are looking into it. Also the perp can move to another Hall without any notes from the previous congregation going to the new congregation. Thus, he can have some fun at the next hall. Never mind the entire congregation takes the side of the perp instead of the victim (eg. Erica's case and the Berry case). Quite frankly, you are dead wrong trying to explain to me that one part of this child policy is a side issue compared to other parts. All parts of the policy are all major issues - the lack of reporting, the so-called bible rules, allowing sickos to knock on doors, not warning the congregation, the SHUNNING, silencing the advocates, trying to prevent J.C. notes to be given to the police and on and on I can go. They all need to be addressed - one only needs to look at the Daniel Fitzwater, a convicted pedophile and is still a JW in good standing, as but one example if someone starts saying to me that one part of this equation is more important than other parts. Down playing the two witness policy is like watching certain authors come to this board and tell me that the child abuse issue is really not that big of a deal because incidents of abuse in the JWs are about the same in the Catholic or other churches. As a non JW all I gotta say is ... Please give me a friggen break. If the incidents are as bad as the Catholics then you guys do have a real problem on your hands. Couple that with the really "closed" system in place and it has spelled disaster for victims. One other point - you indicated that elders encourage JWs to report crimes. Really ....? But what about JWs reporting crimes about other JWs? That is the key right??? JWs rating out other JWs. Keeping in mind that I have read the Nov 15, 1973 WT QFR and that BOE "murder" letter, can you show me a BOE letter or WT article where they actually encourage one JW to take another JW to court? hawk

  Edited by - hawkaw on 8 November 2002 8:31:39