Elders... Examples to the flock?

by Kagloo 10 Replies latest watchtower scandals

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  Kagloo

  A friend visited us today... it took about five minutes before we were having a general moan about the ways things are!

  Nothing new there then!

  Anyway.

  These friends of ours were telling us about the things that go on in the families of elders in various congregations and how these guys are still in office..

  Now I thought that if you were 'appointed' it meant that you had God's blessing and approval... but how does that work out if you are allowing unscriptural things to go on in your own family and yet you are still in office? I don't get it.

  Don't get me wrong... I have been in the truth for years and have made enough mistakes for God to blast me out of existence... but I came out of 'office' ( I was an elder) and now I worship as an 'invisible one' you know the kind of thing... I go but I don't get involved any more... I give my talks on the school but I don't want to be in ' the front line' anymore. And yet there are elders who flout the clear direction of the Gov. Body when it comes to association with their disfellowshipped family members, there are those who drink a little too much, there are those don't take the lead in the ministry, and yet they remain in office. What is going on????

  Thirty years ago we all knew where we stood. There were rules that everyone obeyed ( Well I think thay did!... these days I'm not sure if things are much different now to how they have probably always been) Things back then were black and white... but not anymore... It seems to me that everyone does their own thing.

  It's like this notion that we should not be materialistic..... You go to any assembly or convention and look around the car park and tell me that we are not materialistic!!!! When you think about the way that some people in the third world have to live...... it is a joke to say that we are not materialistic!!

  I know loads of elders that have spent their whole lives building up businesses whilst we (the congregations) were encouraged to 'keep our life simple' and now... whilst we struggle going out on the work in the cold U.K. many of them have moved to Spain or Portugal to retire in luxury in the sun!!!! It makes a mockery of Jesus' admonition to seek the kingdom first..

  Where is all this heading? Perhaps we will be disciplined by God and he will choose to use a more humble people than we are... Perhaps I will be disciplined for speaking my mind. Who knows?

  When I was new to the truth I thought that I knew everything and that I had all the answers.... Now I think that I know nothing at all! I have many more questions than I have answers.

  Roll on Armageddon... At least then we will know where we stand!
• 

  minimus

  it's ok... you can vent.
• 

  benext

  Unfortunately, there is too much desperation in keeping a body of elders intact. Years ago there was some kind of direction, but now the situation seems to be don't make waves. I'm aware of congregations where brothers are recruited to come there with promises of being appointed, or if already an elder, promises of not having to do "too much." In these cases when you pile too much on one or two, what do you think they'll do?
• 

  Kagloo

  BENEXT...

  Thanks for the reply.... I had to laugh at the terminology you used ( don't make waves)

  If I had a pound sterling for every time I heard our P.O. say... " we need to keep this thing under control...Best not to make waves etc.etc.) I would be a pretty wealthly guy!

  Crazy or what!
• 

  KAYTEE

  Hello Kagloo,

  Very interesting reading, it's something that we can relate to. For example, a while back, the P O told me to do what the elders say, whether they are right or whether they are wrong. Recently having heard of the elder who was put in prison for paedophilia, I approached the P O to remind him of his foolish statement and said it was a good job that I hadn't taken noticed of this elder (now in prison) also I asked how many Judical Hearings did this "arch-hypocrite" (words used by the Judge) sit on and judge the future life of others, while carrying on over ten years with this filthy lifestyle. These are the ones that we are supposed to have respect for - Do we really think that Jehovah is listening and backing such ones who are taking the lead in congregations,

  Over 30 years of making allowances for ones with such a lack of spiritual commonsense !!
• 

  Dismembered

  Hi Kagloo & Welcome

  this link might help

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=8954&site=3
• 

  Kagloo

  Hiya KAYTEE...

  I guess that we could all relate to those comments!

  Mind you...I ought to be careful.... I was a new and young elder once upon a time and often went along with things because I didn't want to cause waves... so I am probably as hypocritical as the rest.

  For my own part I have explicit trust and faith in Jehovah and his Son Jesus. I love The Truth ( as I understand it) It helps me make sense of the chaos. But I have little if no trust at all in the elder arrangement... I'll tell you one reason why....

  Some years ago my daughter married a guy in the congregation and basically he went bad after just thirteen weeks of marriage! So the elders 'dealt with him' By that I mean that they slapped his wrist and said... " don't be naughty again!" He had stolen over 3,000.00 from his employer ( I don't know the equiv. in $ ) But no other action was taken as his mother... a long standing witness.... begged his ex-employer not to report him to the Police.

  Anyway... my daughter fell pregnant and the baby was born and we learnt that her husband was refusing to give her money to buy food for the youngster... my wife and I gave her cash for weeks just to feed the lad! We told the elders ( my wife and I that is...) and were told to stop interfering in our daughter's marriage! One of them even called me a clucking old hen! - behind my back of course.

  Things went from bad to worse... the youngster, Liam, died from Sudden Infant Death Syndrome and was buried. Barely a couple of months later an elder came to me, because I was feeling really bad and had suffered what I guess you would call a slight breakdown, and said " don't you think that it's about time that you put this behind you and moved on!!!! " If I were a violent man I would have hit him!

  Meanwhile her husband was up to his old tricks and was soon dealing with counterfeit money, smoking, gambling etc.etc. and eventually was brought before the elders again. This time they told him that he and my daughter should tell my wife and I to keep out of their lives... this is after we paid to bury our only grandson and spent hours EVERY DAY with my daughter who was constantly left on her own, as her husband 'played the field'

  And then they started a study with him !!! They did not even discuss the matter with my daughter... no visits... no encouragement... no help... NOTHING!

  In fact after one such study period with the elder concerned her husband came home and shouted abusively at her... " You stupid bitch... they don't believe YOU they believe ME! "

  It seemed at the time that the very arrangement that should have protected her was actually working against her interests.

  Anyhow... Eventually they guy started an affair with another woman ( not in the truth ) and he was seen and reported and called before the elders again... But this time my daughter had had enough and threw him out... ( By this time she had another two children by him 2years old and three months old! I think that she thought the kids might settle him down a bit! )

  Now... the elders decided to visit her.

  On the day of the visit my wife and I were there, helping with the children... they are great kids...

  The two elders came to the door and must have heard us talking as they walked in.

  " What are THEY doing here ?" one asked. My daughter said that anything that they had to say could be said in front of her mom and dad. Just then they walked into the room and one of them... I have known him for 20 years... turned and said to me.... " One word out of you...and you will be OUT!" Then they DEMANDED that my daughter take her idiot residivist husband back!!

  " You have no right to throw him out" they told her.

  In the end, following FIVE judicial hearings he was disfellowshipped, but not before he had duped us into guaranteeing a 5,000.00 loan which he subsequently refused to pay... leaving my wife and I with the debt....

  When I asked the elders why they hadn't dealt decisively with him before they said " We were concerned about the effect that disfellowshipping him would have on his elderly mother!!!!!!

  ( Show me in the Elders Book where it says that ! )

  This is just a small portion of the experience that we went through... but enough is enough.....

  Just for the record my daughter met a guy in the Truth and they married, had two more sons and are happliy serving Jehovah as a united family...

  And me?

  I am still so angry about the arrogance, the high handedness, the hard-heartedness, the total lack of concern and care for the innocent party whilst protecting the wrong doer that I will probably NEVER trust an elder again...

  I remember one occassion not too long ago when her now ex-husband came out of prison...following a four year sentence for robbery. He was driving his car even though he had been banned from driving for five years and had his licence removed.....and his mother... still a sister in the congregation.... was sitting by his side. Breaking every law in the book. Now , as it happens the Police saw him and he went straight back to jail... but when I approached the elders and asked what they intended to do with his mother they said that I was persecuting the woman and if I didn't stop they would take action against me!

  So now what?

  Well I have, in fact, pulled back from all but the minimum involvement in the congregation.. I prefer to be invisible! They can't hurt you if they can't see you... (I hope)

  I can't help but think that the elders would benefit from specialist training in Counselling etc. Why do we allow these amateurs to barge into our personal lives and wreck everything up so badly?

  Now I just try to keep my head down and do as the scriptures say... " Worship God"

  Take care. Kind regard to you and your family.
• 

  back2dafront

  The organization is full of HYPOCRISY.

  "Do this, don't do that." Everybody knows the rules, few obey them 100%, yet they're all "saved" just by being affiliated with the organization.

  They're always so quick to judge others. The elders are quick to take sides and obviously don't always make the right decisions, yet this is "God's arrangement" so we're supposed to follow them regardless. I've heard so many stories of how people have been done wrong, yet i've NEVER heard of judicial cases that were later on proved to be incorrect and the person reinstated...?? I'd love to hear one if there's one to be related. Just like all the people that were disfellowshipped after oral sex was deemed a sin - how many of them were reinstated years later when "the light shone brighter" and it was up to the individual?? Yeah, like they'd proactively seek out all those that left and try to work with them to help them come back.....i doubt anything remotely close to that happened, but if I'm wrong I'd LOVE to hear about it.

  Everything is so status-oriented. Being a servant or elder or circuit overseer, and even for sisters, a wise, spiritual brother will look for a pioneer etc...they're all status symbols to show others how spiritual you are, which can easily be faked. (speaking from experience) (I was spiritual and still am, it was just easy to lead a double life).

  "I'm the ultimate spiritual person." (hold nose in air)

  I can say this because I was caught up in it. It was cool! Being a Bethelite was almost like being a movie star. People give you mad props - all the girls want to meet you and talk to you....it was such a trip! From a Witness point of view, it was definitely commendable on youths parts to not get caught up in the bad things of the world, but geez....there's a ton of Witnesses out there that are just as spiritual yet do not qualify for Bethel, and they get NO PROPS.

  In the end, it's not going to matter what religion you belong to, what rank you hold or how many people you've told about God. It's all about the right heart condition, which ties in hand in hand w/ Jesus' message. Forget all the rules and focus on loving one another and God. I mean, what religion can really claim they have 100% of God's holy spirit, direction and blessing??? If I were God right now I don't know if I could pick any Religion and say "these people have my blessing." I know I'd be able to pick certain individuals out of all religions based on their heart condition, but I'd NEVER consider blessing one particular religion over the rest of the world. Just seems like common sense to me. ?? How can I condemn Varsha from India for not being Christian and/or a JDub when he's not had any exposure to Christianity? How can I condemn any American who doesn't want to be Catholic or JDub because they've heard of all the sexual abuse amongst the LEADING OFFICIALS OF THE ORGANIZATION?! They're the ones supposed to be setting the example. It just can't be that simple, and I don't know what it will take for people to understand that.

  I've heard so many elder stories where they do not look out for the interests of the woman of a house. That disturbs me deeply. It actually pisses me off to be honest. I hate the way society looks down on women - I thought the borg was above this but obviously I'm wrong.

  It's a constant battle not to get depressed over this. Sometimes it gets the best of me. I'm thankful for my girlfriend - she's the only one that continues to encourage me and support me. It's really frikkin hard sometimes.
• 

  ballistic

  Funny thing was I once spent a whole Saturday with an elder copying software off his PC, including music files, games and expensive business software, the next day was his public talk and he gave a lecture to everyone about copying CDs and how illegal it was.
• 

  Room 215

  Hello Kagloo, welcome aboard. Because of the emphasis they place on conformity to rules and saving oneself through slavish adherence to a ritualistic regimen of meetings and field service, too often slogged through reflexively and perfunctorily, it's inevitable that hyprocrisyand the living of ``double lives'' would be rife among JWs. It's all but bulit into the system.

  For example, despite the incessant pressure to ``preach, preach, preach, their ``life-giving message zealously and at every opportunity, `in the short time left, what percentage of JWs routinely and proactively, if ever, preach to their workmates and neighbors, or even disclose their religious affiliations unless absolutely cornered? And what of JW youths, particularly the teenagers at school?

  And so it goes through the entire fabric of JW life, and the elders are likely to excel at ``the game'' even if they do so subconsciously. Take my local Kingdom Hall, there are nine elders; only two of whom support dependent children living at home. Any one of them would be thrilled to get a letter on Watchtower stationery assigning them to deliver a keynote discourse at a District Convention on ``Serving Full-Time Where the Need is Greatest. As they thrust our their chests proudly and boast about their good fortune, will it ever occur to seven of nine of them that their personal circumstances are ideally suited to accepting that urgent invitation from Jehovah? Nossir! Thats for the other guy!

  And theres the incessant request for new homes in the congregation that can host a Book Study; once again, all of the nine elders are homeowners; only two have dependent children, and but one of these just one has a Book Study assigned to his house. Yet any one of these can unblushingly urge the rank and file to ``open up their homes citing the ``innumerable blessings tat attend those families that do so.

  Add to all of this the oft-mentioned dawdling, clock-watching, aimless driving about and desultory time-wasting that passes for weekend ``field service and on and on goes goes the self-deceiving``role-playing charade.