Another Missing Link....

by VioletAnai 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    The fact you exist means some source of existence also exists

    That's a meaningless statement. We exist so logically, we must have either always existed or we began to exist. That tells us nothing about how or why we exist.

    The fact of evolution means that if we were created by a god, he did it in the slowest, most tortuous and inhuman way possible. Or he's pretending he did. There's no need for a god to explain how we got here, and in fact, postulating a god, explains nothing. It just gives us more to explain. Remember Occam's Razor: "Do not multiply entities unnecessarily".

  • nancee park
    nancee park

    You are trying to turn the subject aside, but that's okay. Here's something on Santa Claus:

    SANTA CLAUS, WHY HE IS N-O-T PAGAN: The true story about Santa though it sounds like a romantic made-up myth is historically documented, and here it appears condensed for easy reading from an article by Austin Miles, a highly reputable chaplain, writer and historian in Northern California, posted on crosswalk.com on December 20, 2001. Miles was also a writer-researcher and technical consultant for the CBS award-winning rseries Ancient Secrets of The Bible.

    To begin, about 200 AD some elders met at a little church in Myra, Turkey was to decide on their next bishop and, being uncertain whom this should be, they began praying, while out at sea a ship's crew battled a storm then in desperation shouted for Nicholas, a known man of God with a long white beard, to pray for them. He did, the storm calmed down, and the ship drifted into Myra's harbor. The church elders had quit their praying, feeling sure God wanted them to appoint the first man named Nicholas entering the church to pray within the hour. When Nicholas entered they gave him a long red robe and cane or miter, and he soon became known as The Bishop of Miracles because of many spectacular answers to his prayers.

    Although from a wealthy family Nicholas gave away most of his own money but was also sometimes given donations of gold coins which he wanted to put to the best use. Girls back then who did not have a dowry to get married were sold into slavery which included prostitution. To combat this on December 6th at dark Nicholas wrapped gold coins in some little bags and visited homes with a daughter who had no dowry, dropping a bag through the windows so that it landed on the hearth where the girl's clothing was drying. The next morning each family was delighted that their daughter would not have to become a slave although nobody knew who the mysterious gift-giver had been. One night a bag fell into a stocking that was drying before a fireplace instead of on the hearth, giving rise to the custom came of using stockings to hold some Christmas gifts.

    Shortly before Nicholas's death on a December 6th, people learned he was the gift-giver who had brought such great joy to so many families, and om the 9th Century, the Roman Catholic Church declared him a saint, that is Saint Nicholas. His story spread, and French nuns in the 12th Century also started going out at night each year to give fruit and nuts to poor families with children on December 5 the day before Nicholas' day so that it was called St Nicholas Eve. The tradition spread to the Americas where some people still celebrate on December 6th. Luther believed the true Christmas message about Jesus Christ was diminished by the St Nicholas connection, and the Dutch-German Protestant Reform Movement sought to highlight Christ more, using the German word for Christ and child which is Christkindl from which comes Kris Kringle.

    The night before Christmas on 1822, Clement Moore, the son of the Episcopal bishop of New York, and himself a theology professor, wrote the poem The Night Before Christmas for his children, which was published 1823 in the Sentinel of Troy, New York. Moore used the name Santa Claus, likely from Dutch Sinter (Saint) and Klass which is short for Nicholas. Dutch knowing little English but aware gold had been found on the fireplace hearth in Nicholas' time started the legend that the original Santa Claus had come down the chimney, landing in the cinders, and called him Cinder Klaussen. Moore's poem popularized Santa famous, he named the reindeer, and made them fly perhaps because poet Washington Irving wrote a book in 1809 about a Dutch Colonist's dream in which St Nick rode above trees in a wagon bearing gifts.

    Harper's Weekly cartoonist Thomas Nash depicted Santa as plump, jolly and dressed in the red that robes worn by St Nicholas had actually used. Haddon Sundblom drew the most famous picture of Santa which was for the soft drink company Coca Cola, and the elves came from Ireland's leprechauns....... Perhaps these documented facts will surprise some readers, since from about 1920 to 2001 so much misinformation was left about by some religionists in magazines on the alleged pagan origins of Santa Claus, some even claiming he derived from wizards in the far north of Russia or an ancient god who came down chimneys in the Orient, thus needlessly denying themselves and others much joy since the true story of St Nicholas is wholly Christian - the only main exceptions being the reindeer and elves. So, ho-ho-ho and a merry Christmas to all!

  • nancee park
    nancee park

    There are facts supportive of evolution but they do not mean that a source/Source/God does not exist. "Why" we exist was not brought up, but "how" living creatures came into existence was. Whether the source/Source did so "in the slowest, most tortuous and inhuman way possible," in the slowest most meandering yet godly way possible, or just all at once is not discussed. What is discussed is whether belief in evolution means you cannot also be a Christian, which is the view the both the Watchtower Society and you, Derek, appear to be taking.

    You say "There's no need for a god to explain how we got here, and in fact, postulating a god, explains nothing. It just gives us more to explain." Again, the discussion was not on if existence/source/Source/God exists (though it is an obvious fact that existence exists), but if the method by which humans came into existence (evolution/nonevolution) mean one cannot be a Christian if s/he holds the one view or the other. In fact I know many people who say "I'm not 100% sure one way or another."

    You close, Derek, saying "Remember Occam's Razor: "Do not multiply entities unnecessarily". Occam's Razor says that the simplest explanation is usually the right one. It does not preclude the unusual but is a generalization.

  • expatbrit
    expatbrit

    Nancee:

    The fact you exist means some source of existence also exists.

    Um, yes, that's the whole point isn't it? The fact that we exist proves that we exist. And that's all. It doesn't provide any proof of how we came to exist, or that God exists.

    The idea that God began the process of evolution is an interesting concept. If convincing and rational evidence is ever discovered supporting this theory, I will then begin to give it credence. So far, there is no convincing evidence that God used evolution (or that God exists). As Derek said, the more scientific knowledge increases, the less need there is to have supernatural explanations for the natural universe and it's contents.

    Expatbrit

    Edited by - expatbrit on 5 July 2002 13:31:18

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