Dr. Nicolosi and homosexuality

by JWinSF 20 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  spaz

  Hi Mark,

  I'm unsure if you're an xjw. It seems to be a cultural anomally for jws NOT to listen. On the top of the jw totem pole of poor listeners are elders. You're not "listening' to what I said. I said that homosexual orientation is the involuntary mechanism of the mind. I said that choice enters when someone decides to engage in homosexual behaviour or not to engage in the behaviour. Do you remember that? Statistics in Psycholgy Magazine a few years ago claimed 87% of male homosexuals experience the orientation, and that usually during puberty which causes enormous distress for most young males and to the numerically lesser, females. The word "suffer" is not always limited to mean adversity or pain; it can simply mean to "undergo" something.

  What I'm saying is that I do understand the problem that sufferers of homoseuxal orientation experience. Life is difficult for them to say the least. Intolerance amongst a group that you consider brothers or friends makes life even more unbearable for something you never wished upon yourself. Suicide is a remedy for some sufferers, you know that. Now, the sufferer has five options:(i) Either he(or she) acquiesces to the sexual craving and engages in the behaviour,(ii) he remains celibate forever,(iii)forces himself into heterosexuality and the anguish that brings or (iv) seeks reparative therapy which, contrary to what the Homosexual Activists claim, is highly successful or (v) suicide.

  Is that any clearer? Regards, Spaz
• 

  FriendlyFellaAL

  What I'm saying is that I do understand the problem that sufferers of homoseuxal orientation experience. Life is difficult for them to say the least. Intolerance amongst a group that you consider brothers or friends makes life even more unbearable for something you never wished upon yourself. Suicide is a remedy for some sufferers, you know that. Now, the sufferer has five options:(i) Either he(or she) acquiesces to the sexual craving and engages in the behaviour,(ii) he remains celibate forever,(iii)forces himself into heterosexuality and the anguish that brings or (iv) seeks reparative therapy which, contrary to what the Homosexual Activists claim, is highly successful or (v) suicide.

  I know this wasn't really addressed to me, but I'm going to take a moment to respond to your post.

  You mentioned above that it is possible to seek "reparative therapy which, contrary to what the Homosexual Activists claim, is highly successful." Could you please provide some sort of statistic to back up that claim? I've heard statements like this made repeatedly on this forum in the last few weeks but as of yet have found no one providing proof to back that up.

  Brian
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  spaz

  Hi Brian,

  I once had stats names of groups etc. I'll have to do some research to get that--so be patient with me. However, as I'm writing, I do recall one group of rehabilitated, former homosexuals that was affiliated with The Family Research Council (Now I'm not sure of the precise name of the group)E.mail me if I lose track of this thread. Regards Spaz
• 

  FriendlyFellaAL

  Hi Spaz,

  Will do. I'm very interested in this, but I've got a feeling that most of the studies conducted have been by groups with an 'agenda' either pro or against. I would be incredibly interested in seeing some statistics performed by third party groups, but I doubt there are any like that.

  Brian
• 

  Kingpawn

  I'm unsure if you're an xjw.

  I am, but I don't have any way to prove it! Maybe there's a central database in Brroklyn and someone could hack it to find me on the list?

  listeners are elders. You're not "listening' to what I said. I said that homosexual orientation is the involuntary mechanism of the mind. I said that choice enters when someone decides to engage in homosexual behaviour or not to engage in the behaviour. Do you remember that?

  The first "I said..." quoted above was in your previous post. The second I couldn't find. Was it in the original thread?

  Intolerance amongst a group that you consider brothers or friends makes life even more unbearable for something you never wished upon yourself.

  This was never a problem. The JW's never knew. At that time, neither did I. IOW, I considered myself bi and suffering more of heterosexuality.

  Suicide is a remedy for some sufferers, you know that. Now, the sufferer has five options:(i) Either he(or she) acquiesces to the sexual craving and engages in the behaviour,(ii) he remains celibate forever,(iii)forces himself into heterosexuality and the anguish that brings or (iv) seeks reparative therapy which, contrary to what the Homosexual Activists claim, is highly successful or (v) suicide.

  That word "sufferer" will forever get my hackles up, no matter how many times you try and okay its use. Here one suffers from headaches, or diseases, or other unpleasant/unhealthy things. I for one don't feel its something I need option (iv) for. Those people, imo, have been goaded into it by people laying guilt trips on them about being gay. Too concerned with what others think. Screw that. I had done (iii) but now am sick to death of it; (i) is my choice now.

  Was the group associated with the FRC you were trying to recall Exodus International? I think strongly they were the one where the two top guys in it fell in love with each other, set up house together, and as a result Exodus folded.

  FriendlyFella's probably right in that there will never be statistics on ex-gay ministries' results being compiled by some group w/o an axe to grind one way or another. It'll always be as politicized as the debate over the harmful effects of pot use.

  Nice talking with you,

  Mark
• 

  spaz

  Hi Guys,

  First; I'm not gonna change my usage because someone else abhors a word. Also, while I'm aware of the Exodus incident I wasn't referencing that group. In this thread I both alluded to the difference in orientation and choice as I have in other threads including ISP's on the Friends forum of a few days ago.

  To my knowledge, Nicolosi and Socarides are not directly involved with religious agendas, but one will often see them interviewed on religious programs perhaps giving the (mis)impression that they have a religious agenda. I think one of the motivating factors for an individual to divest himself of homosexual orientation and/or the homosexual behaviour and lifestyle is adopting a meaningful life which religion can satisfy. It seems that therapy failures are largely connected to an individual's meaningless existence. Statistically, the connection to positive results might be skewed by religious connection. I do know that secular individuals have divested themselves from the orientation to live very heterosexual identities without backsliding. It might have been in one of Charles Socarides books where I gleaned statistics.

  You know, having extricated myself from the jw culture, I no longer have to judge people( And I think now, by having the advantage of hindsight, that I was just as narrow-minded, self-righteous and judgemental as the next jw).That of itself is relieving and refreshing for me. I am somewhat disinterested in how a person chooses to live his life. All of us, according to my reckoning, are responsible to God and it is He who judges. And it seems that we are merely responsible to help other people if it is in the power of our hand to do so and more so if we've been specifiaclly asked by another person.

  Regards, Spaz
• 

  singsongboi

  those with an investigative bent, can search the web.. and you will find that.. yes! some claim success at changing homosexuals.....

  but, one such group in england closed down about 2 years ago-- the co-ordinator, saying that he could see little point in continuing, as they had never changed anyone....

  the ex-pastor, of a similar group in a large (and influential) church in singapore, admitted a little while ago, that in his years in charge of that group, no-one had ever changed. He himself gave up his ministry and has gone back to a gay life (hey! that's a euphemism).

  the key person in another group was photographed in a gay bar... he claimed (and his explanation wasaccepted by the group) that he was just looking for a toilet...yeah!! right!!

  so can people change ? -- well, of course> >> spaz is right on that point... finding that we have a desire for other men, we are presented with a range of alternatives.... and circumstances (our culture) heavily influenced by religious fanatics forces us to consider them... many others, have fought the good fight also, and tried to follow the option of NOT having sex with men. Most exjws that are gay will have tried marriage.. so ask them -- is one hole as good as another, when it comes to sex? The answer is NO!!

  i have spoken on this board about myself....

  at 16-17 (approx) i decided i would NOT be gay -- through sheer power of the will -- i rode over my basic sexual attraction to men, and made myself a pretty good imitation of a str8 man. though, my former father-in-law (HF James) reckons now that he thought i was gay when he first met me. But then, Farleigh had known a lot of gay men (even in those days) as he was involved in the opera world. But, I still wonder why his wife (gwen) disliked gay men (and the whole opera scene) more overtly than farleigh?

  anyways, after 6-7 years i felt i could marry --- won't go into this, and fast forward some 30 odd yeqars later, when with great force my sexual attraction to other men returned and i was kicked out of dubdom....

  Mentally, i was still a jw... and thought god was punishing me and disciplining me... So i set forth to be disciplined....

  having in mind the example of elijah (or was it elisha) being fed by the ravens (exies will know the symbolism), i turned to christendom for help, in the person of fred nile***, a rabid gay-hater ( and i don't think he's too keen on jws, either).

  surprise... he would not talk to me -- several phone calls later, the best help i could get from fred, or rather his wife, (she always spoke to me) -- was the name of a doctor who "could" help me. why wouldn't fred talk to me-- see me-- help me????... well, you guyz can conjecture as well as i can..

  the good doctor was kindness personified, cancelled other appiontments to talk to me, heard my story, told me that god must love me veri much because my story was so like's job (different torment that's all) -- and yes, he knew 1 or 2 gay men that were going okie as str8 men for " a few months anyway!!!

  he discussed a range of treatments and then said. Well none of them work!!! Only prayer and the holy spirit will work.. OH! and reading the bible.

  well i said, i already do that... (and i was-- i studied the bible, read it at least one hour a day, prepared every talk, prayed with deep fervour, went to all, the meetings**** --- sat at the back in disgrace -- all as if i knew for sure that the big A was coming next week..~!!) when he heard my study regime he showed disbelief, and just said... persevere in prayer....

  I DID NOT CHANGE BACK!!!!.

  ***fred is a church minister and member of parliament, and is best described as a morals crusader.

  **** and one service meeting, a public reproof was read out, concerning the son of one of the elders (an old friend by the way).. and then came the reproof talk -- on the sin of homosexuality!!

  so there were two fags in the meeting!!!!

  Edited by - singsongboi on 27 June 2002 18:2:0
• 

  spaz

  Hi singsongboi,

  I'm sorry if life's been difficult for you in more ways than one. I suspect that there is more homosexuality in the watchtower world than what is presently known to exist. I knew a jw who was a welder by trade and one evening after working late in the Long Beach oilfields he wanted a beer so he walzed into a local pub that he slowly recognized to be a gay bar. Sitting in a far corner was an elder whom he recognized. During a conversation this elder conceded that there were several elders and other individuals he knew to be closet homosexuals(Long Beach, California). I suspect the Bethel system is a haven for the homosexually inclined and if not, at least produces effeminate and disturbed heterosexuals.

  Another jw I knew suffered the orientation and the jw culture was hell for him. There was no tolerance, no understanding and no practical way to aid him to divest himself of an orientation he was unhappy with. He eventually sought out the assistance of a female therapist that employed Socarides methods, but it was unsuccessful. I do believe that Socarides, and Nicolosi's to a lesser degree, understand the root cause of homosexual orientation. The therapies are hit and miss which might be a reflection on the individual patient's makeup. Over all, these therapists have a better track record than those advancing therapies with questionable understandings of the root cause.
• 

  singsongboi

  well! spazzi...

  the wts as a "haven" for homosexuals... ???? Really! well, not disbelieving your thought -- and god knows, maybe they are. But until a few weeks ago and i was invited to a party (in sydney) by a gay exie and met 3 others, i did not know of many others..

  but! as i said in a previous post somewhere, lots of gay men have sought refuge in a church organisation -- and once there they have "UPHELD", the anti-gay sanctions of the church, as part of their own self-discipline.. so maybe Jws are seen to be as good a place as any to "hide"...!!! LOL>

  and, while i've had a dam difficult time, i have sailed into my "spiritual paradise" as a gay man... leaving behind the grim gray walls of dub city, and living now in a rainbow colored paradise...

  an "over-the-top" description??? yeah! well doan forget that i'm a queen ...!!! LOL

  and point 2. cheee! mate i'm supposeed to a bit effeminate, being gay and all arn't i, mate? but the funny thing is that i feel more of a man now as an exie, than i did when i was "TRYING" to be a str8 man in the org.. yeah! so that may mean you are right about what dub city does to men..!!

  sometimes, i think i'd like to be bit more......hhmmm, well "birdcageish" (like robin williams partner in that movie)..
• 

  spaz

  Hi singsongboi,

  I didn't mean homosexual men. I observed that heterosexual males in the watchtower world were dominated largely by their women and exhibited traditional unmasculine ways. Bethels just seem to spew out more effiminate males. Effeminacy seems to be the goal toward which the Brooklyn oligarchs want to march men and masculinization, women. Androgynization of the genders seems to be the official policy. In this homogenized quagmire all manner of dysfunction proliferates, including heterosexual relationship discord, homosexual orientation, paedophillia, etc..

  Anyhow, I won't be posting here any longer. My different way of thinking really prevents me from contributing anything positive. If you need to you can communicate via my e.mail.

  Regards, Spaz