I like your approach, but cloak it aa a reason why householders reject god
as if it's something JWs need to overcome
then you can point out all kinds of discrepancies that "stumble" those silly worldly people
The best way to debate JW's without being labeled an apostate
by cookiemaster 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Crazyguy
I too have been using this approach, showing the problems with the bible over problems with the Borg. Most are not even familiar with all the bibles issues and I think it catches them with their pants down. I also don't think there able to put up their defence mode as well as when your saying something against the borg. They just don't see it coming its like a sneak attack. I think it may help more to wake up if you pull the bible rug out from underneath them..The only thing I have noticed is its a big whammy for someone who believes in the bible and its gods to hear something showing the bible is a joke, so one has to start off a bit easy.
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Phizzy
The thing to do is identify what you wish to achieve. Do you want to wake the JW for sure ? or perhaps just get them off your back ? this last may be all you can achieve.
If you want to wake them up for sure, then, as Crazyguy says, you have to go easy.
The problem is that there is so much crap to cut through, and once you have achieved a certain goal in that process, the JW usually wants to back off and go no further, so you never get to take them all the way through the crap to the clean place beyond.
I have tried starting with the problems with the Bible, but most JW's do not, cannot ?, take on board what you say, they just move on, disregarding the problems, thinking that the WT must have an answer to all this somewhere, but they are too lazy to look for it.
If you simply want them off your back, then hit them with The Problem of Evil, the most honest response I got from an Elder on this was, "There is no answer", this as he scuttled away so as to not try to answer.
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cookiemaster
WOW, you guys are brilliant. So many great approaches. You all have great experiences to share and I think we can all learn a lot from each other.
Blondie - Not so much in my experience. Especially if they don't personally know you and approch you on the street or something. You don't have to say atheist right from the bat but express doubts or concerns about God, the bible, etc. They're usually trained to scream apostate as soon as someone criticizes the WT and their beloved GB. Any questioning of JW doctrine, especially in a way revealing you have inside knowledge, makes you instantly an apostate. Questioning god, religion, holy writings and stuff like that might do that too (it's very possible) but not to the same extent as questioning the borg.
AndDontCallMeShirley - Hahah, you are very corect. Even when you give answers at the WT Sunday study, if you don't use JW vocabulary but synonym words that aren't present in their publications, they almost freak out.
NAVYTOWN - Those are brilliant questions I'll certainly try to use.
RedVip2000 - Your approach is very sneaky. And you're right. Thing is, I don't necessarily say outright that I don't believe in God. It depends on the person you're interacting with. You can take a more moderate approach and say you have your doubts about God (due to all the evil stuff from the bible), the bible, that you found certain scientific innacuracies in the bible, concerns about the bible's origin, God's morals, that sort of stuff. You know, trying to be tame and non-confrontational. More like, asking their assistance in getting help with these questions.
Breakfast of Champions - Thanks! That's exactly my experience too. You can say stuff about God, the bible, whatever but don't you dare say anything about the almighty WT, Governing Body, or their saints (Russel, Rutherford, Knorr).
Greener - With people you know that won't immediately turn you in as an apostate (family for example) it's a good approach. Most JW's have no idea such despicable things are allowed to happen, so it's really shocking to them.
Oubliette - I did now know this approach and I have to say, it's pure genius. Seriously, it's much better than my idea. This is something you can actually use with family members without getting into a huge fight. Brilliant.
StuckInARut- You got big cojones man. Seriously, you're a hero for having the balls to do this. It's great. I can only imagine the look on their faces, and then trying to somehow justify in their minds what you just told them. Like, Jehovah has ordered many atrocities and genocides, but, but, but those people were sinners, and those babies deserved to die because they would grow up to be sinners.
JWdaughter - Yes, exactly. The biggest possible threat you can present is challenging the organization. Having doubts about God or the bible is seen nowhere near as dangerous. It's almost like nobody cares. Since you're not having any problem with the authority of the elders or governing body, it's all good. You're not an apostate, just a troubled individual.
SparrowDown - I'm one of those baptized post 2010 and you couldn't be more right. I did not know any bible verses, I didn't read the WT or anything. I barely knew enough to get baptized to please my family and friends. What a fool I've been.
GodSendConspirator - Unfortunately, I don't have that luxury because my family are JW's and I can't abandon them in this wretched cult.
Kaik - That's a good technique too. Certainly has a shock value about it. Problem is, it's a bit too confrontational and aggressive and they're mentally conditioned by the GB to immediately dismiss such attacks as apostate.
WallsofJerich- Great advice. Thanks!
CrazyGuy - Very well thought out. I agree entirely.
Phizzy - You're right. I might have been a little too aggressive in my original post. It's indeed very important to take things slowly and not be too confrontational.