preface question:

by mohrb 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Alive!
    Alive!

    Absolutely StarTrekAngel.

    And when your deepest desire is to be a faithful witness, yet one repeatedly feels the horrible anguish and painful discomfort of "things not lining up" - well let's just say it's a hard, hard journey swimming to the surface and getting a gasp of guilt free clear air....only to feel like you are going down again and drowning in a murky underworld of guilt, fear and anxiety as yet another publication throws up the story of Korah, equates conscientious questioning with "an independent spirit" - would I really want to bring my non-witness family and friends into this mental prison?

  • mohrb
    mohrb

    Grrr, my normal formatting isn't going to work. I apologize as this may look sloppy:

    First, forgive me while I try to figure out all of this forum's format options.

    Alive-

    But, our fundamental role is to make converts.

    There's the first misunderstanding. I'm sure you remember the illustration of the faithful slave "providing spiritual food at the proper time." Really think about that illustration. What's the food? What is it that provides nourishment to the heart? Think about that illustration literally. I suggest that food is God's teaching through prayerful understanding of the bible. All the fancy peripheral books "What does the bible teach" and magazines and whatnot are the plates and silverware... they're not the food... they're a tool to eat the food. The greatest common factor I see among Ex-JWs is a disgust about how rarely they were reading "the bible" and how often they replaced it with a book about the bible as a substitute. Forks and knives are VERY useful for eating your food, but your stomach will be empty if you fill your plate with silverware. ... this doesn't mean silverware is useless. Some people just use it wrong.

    Think of God as the Chef in his own house. He made all the food. The assignment the WBTS have is to manage the rest of us servents as we plate the food God's prepared (people who write study articles) and present the food to the guests at God's table (those to whom we're preaching).

    If our goal is to rush the meal to get our guests to come work in the kitchen... how are those guests to enjoy the meal God prepared? Likewise if we push the meat aside and obsess over how friggin' awesome the cutlery is! That defeats the purpose.

    The system works. We've been sloppy in it's execution (particularly since the 50's). Doesn't mean the food's bad. We've been assuming our primary function is to focus on the cutlary, so we have starved waiters. Then the food stops looking so good and people quit.

    Make sense?

    How can an honest person "witness" to folk with flawed and unscriptural doctrines - how could I possibly teach the latest generation teaching when I'm personally shaking my head and thinking...how could I have taught previous interpretations as if it were truth, absolute truth - praying with my students "that these marvellous truths sound down into their heart?"

    There's your problem. Arrogance. We work for the best interpretation of scripture we CAN. To assume an understanding is "Absolute truth" is to point a spiritual gun at your spiritual face. Learning something better seems to be a "problem" instead of something to be celebrated. Tell me, assume again for a moment that God's plan is for you to live forever in his Kingdom. You can chill out with the big dude for an infinite amount of time and can ask him any question. If you had a 10 year long conversation directly with God... could you learn everything there was to know and completely run out of questions? In 10 years you couldn't even get a list of all the stars in a galexy, let alone know everything about each planet. What about a 1,000 year conversation? Could you understand everything that he's planned throughout history? Every artistic touch he's put in your DNA? How can we ever run out of questions? We'll never have a perfect understanding of the infinite knowledge there is in the universe... because that's how "infinite" works. I assume that after this system, after the 1,000 year reign, and a few million years into the future we'll STILL be improving our understanding of all the reasons God has for stuff. So, how arrogant can we be to assume that our interpretation of a TINY book is "absolute truth?" I agree that the book is inspired by God... but we need a lot more than a couple thousand years to fully comprehend all of the contexts. Be reasonable. Accept that we're still learning, and we always should be. This is a good thing. If you expect a group with an "absolute truth" ... you're looking for a group that's stopped asking questions. That's a bad thing.

    How could I expect an honest hearted person to accept our stand on blood? Blood poured out for the intake of fractions is a conscience decision, but blood poured out for a transfusion is wicked and detestable to Jehovah? Is blood sacred or not? This isn't just about "us" - it's about proactively teaching others and drawing them into the organisation.

    That, perhaps, is a tangent for another thread. For now, I'll leave it at this: It's a matter of conscience. The bible doesn't "Forbid" the use of blood. It says it should be "abstained from." Pray about it and trust God to help you find understanding. Blood isn't magical evil stuff... but it's dangerous to mess around with. Look at Noblood.org. This is NOT a JW site... doesn't have any religious connotation at all. Even with all of the advancements that have been made in how to most safely transfuse blood, there are a LOT of doctors who medically object to blood transfusions. There are dozens of hospitals across the US that are completely transfusion free. And there are a lot of advantages to that. There are very rational and irrational extremes on both ends, regarding this topic. In the end... it's not a "foundational Doctrine." It's not required for JWyness.

    Would you witness and conduct bible studies, teaching interpretations which you have personally found difficult to swallow? What does that do to us? How damaging is that to our conscience? But what options do witnesses have? Is it fair to ask folk to join God's organisation knowing that once they are baptised, they will be expected to believe whatever new 'truths' are handed out.

    I have a feeling there's a bit more context to this suggestion. Mind clarifying? For example, I'm skeptical about the theory that Michael and Jesus are the same being. Here's how I address that topic: Some witnesses SUGGEST that these two may be the same individual based upon the following correlations between the two: (And there are rational things linking them). However, the bible doesn't specifically say one way or the other... so it's something we'll find out when we find out. It's an interesting theory to consider. I would never say they DEFINITELY are the same person. I would never say the DEFINITELY aren't... because the evidence is sloshy... it's no stronger than the scriptures trinitarians use for their theory. Dissent is fine... just be reasonable and respectful. Just because you don't fully buy into something as an absolute truth... doesn't mean there's a malicious conspiracy or "intentional untruth." I do agree, however, that some people are arrogant in their understanding and preach topics such as this as unquestionable. I've seen it, and they'll have to answer to God for that, because I've seen it make people stumble. We think we're being "authoritative" ... but that arrogant attitude, assuming we have all the answers of unquestionable truth... is exactly what set up most of the people who are here today.

    I have loved the teaching of paradise like so many here - but over the past 20 odd years, my conscience has taken a battering. I prayed for the understanding of what turned out to be error..... so many times. That hurts - and it hurts that I have delivered intellectually dishonest publications to folk, containing manipulative language at times. Not my words, but written by men who don't seem to think it's a problem.....it's heartbreaking.

    I believe that you're heartbroken. I understand, and I've seen it many times. Some time I'll tell you about that circuit overseer talk I heard that literally almost had me stand up in the middle of the meeting to object. People make horrible mistakes. Even those we expect to be held to a higher standard. But we're all people. Some of us have lied and cheated and stole and killed and raped. Considering how most of the apostles have faltered and sinned, how can we expect perfection from speakers and article writers? They are expected to honestly try. But, we have to be rational and take, even what they say, critically. Don't put them on a pedistal. They're men.

    So, what does the talk of an imperfect (even sinful) man have to do with the teaching of a paradise earth? Did his talk change what was written thousands of years ago? If a crackhead the street tells you 2+2=4... does this become untrue because of who said it? Ad Hominem. Horrible people can be right. Amazing people can be wrong. Wise men can sin. Not everyone in authority uses it properly. Why do these things change what you think of the bible?

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    mohrb says ...... But, what is this "can not be fixed" rubbish? You realize the foundation of the religion is based upon questioning man-made teachings.

    And created by man made doctrines which cant be fixed and be objectively critical toward from people not of the highest GB position .

    Change doesn't not come within from the lower levels of this organization it comes only from the top down.

    Many people have tried only to be DFed, muzzled and demonised by other members in their established congregations.

    Most JWS realize that any attempt from themselves could occur the same results .

    So go ahead and start questioning any newly found information you have acquired on any of the core doctrines.

    Write letters to Bethel HQ and watch closely what happens.

  • Gustv Cintrn
    Gustv Cintrn

    4th gen in very good standing JW here. This is a nice venting site when my frustrations with this imperfect Org get the best of me, also a good site to e-see ex-JWs and the misinformed become self-fulfilling prophecies while throwing out the baby with the bath water.

    All fun and fine times!

    GC

  • mohrb
    mohrb

    Onthewayout: I've definitely questioned each of those things, myself. IMO, the WBTS's understanding of the 144k is our most harmful teaching. It's the source of so much arrogance that is the slippery slope to what obviously crushed your faith. That's a tangent I wouldn't mind exploring in another thread.

    Your question: "Where do we speak up?" is a valid one. And valuable. It's something that SHOULD be answered. This is 2014. We has the internets. Instead of crying about a poorly written article, we should hold the writers accountable when an article is poorly written. There are quite a few for which I'd like clarification. Luckily, these are the minority. A rational interpretation of most articles are pretty healthy and harmless. And, again, the point isn't the article. That's not your food. That's the cutlery. A horrible homework assignment doesn't make math itself wrong.

    Kate: --face hugs-- I'm sorry you were mistreated. Whether or not people are worthy of your faith, please don't let their sins keep you from Jehovah. Some of his fanclub can be idiots sometimes. They'll have to explain themselves eventually.

    Star Trek "Rather we invite you to engage the debate, which in our experience is not something a regular JW will be willing to do": It's 2014. More of us should be. And that is exactly the healthy reason I enjoy going to forums like this. People like you who honestly WANT open conversation. What makes rational conversation difficult is people who went from one extreme of "this is absolute truth" to the other extreme of "This is an evil mind controlling cult lie baby-eating.... thing" ... That extremism is harmful in either direction.

    Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited,provoking and envying each other.

    Some people DO fake-love-bomb. Others actually friggin' love. Don't let the pickles ruin the rest of the delicious sammich. (This illustration makes sense if, like me, you enjoy delicious sammiches... but do not like pickles. When I hit a pickle, I don't throw the sammich away. I get the pickle out of my way so I can enjoy the sammich. Pickles are gross.)


    Edit:  WHAT IS THIS 10 POST LIMIT!?    I don't want to wall-o'-text, but this discussion is fun... so... sorry.   I want to address every single point everyone makes, but apparently the site hates people who don't stop talking.  And I don't see a PM function.  

    Star Trek: "Most of us were also thaught that the world outside the KH was evil. " Another thing that sets people up with irrationally high expectations and crushes people's faiths. That gave me some trouble when I was a child too. Took a while to figure out that logic and faith aren't enemies.

    Last point I'll make to keep it short: There's a difference between "Independent/rebellious" thinking and "Critical thinking." It's a wife thinking "How can I help my husband" vs. "how can I help myself at the expense of my husband." Trying to splinter off to teach "this congregation teaches this" and "that congregation teaches that" is disruptive. But, all congregations working together, honestly testing our understandings and weeding out flaws is exactly how we grow. We did it well until the 50's.

  • cofty
    cofty

    mohrb - You have presented a false dichotomy.

    Many of us are not the irrational, hate-filled ex-Jws you describe.

    Some of us are ex-elders who know everything there possibly is to know about the organisation and it's teachings, and who have concluded the whole thing is unworthy of our loyalty or trust. Knowing what I do now, I would be ashamed to be associated with the Watchtower in any way. This is based on knowledge, and evidence not on emotion.

    You are aware that the organisation is not everything it claims to be. Well done. You have taken the first step. Keep reading and conversing with an open mind.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    There's the first misunderstanding. I'm sure you remember the illustration of the faithful slave "providing spiritual food at the proper time."

    Really think about that illustration.

    WBT$ Spiritual Food Is Crap!!..

    WBT$ Crappy Spiritual Food thrown out all the time by the WBT$..

    They replace it with New Spiritual Food/New Light..

    .

    Eventually the WBT$ throws out the New Spirtual Food/New Light..because..

    The New WBT$ Spiritual Food/New Light is as Crappy,as the first WBT$ Crap you were served..

    Then your Served more Crappy Spiritual Food/New Light..

    It`s a never ending Menu of WBT$ Crappy Spiritual Food/New Light.

    ..

    .............................................Whats for JW Dinner?..

    .................................More WBT$ Crappy Spiritual Food!!..

    ..................................

    ................................................http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab110/GeneralWaco/mutley-ani1.gif...OUTLAW

  • Alive!
    Alive!

    Hi - thank you for your very well thought out comments Mohrb, you took time and care in considering my written thoughts.

    Believing that what I was taught and what I in turn taught was nothing less than absolute truth was not of my own internal reckoning.

    Arrogance was a word used by yourself to sum up that particular element of my spiritual journey as directed by the WBTS.

    Did you mean my arrogance or the Watchtower's?

    This is a matter of life and death apparently - people responding to the Good News of the Kingdom.

    People are sick to death of religion - and yet in these critical times when peoples trust in organised religion is pretty low, the best we can offer is poor reasoning on far too many bible subjects.

    And.....false expectations and false dates.

    The same man who pronounced us to be Jehovah's Witnesses also pronounced that there would shortly be an earthly resurrection of ancient ones who would all live in a very pleasant mansion in the USA.

    What spirit was leading that man? How do you honestly think your tidy illustration of platters and cutlery sit with honest people who dare to think that the true God would not "mess" with us, allowing really bad error to influence his people.... In a time that is supposedly so critical of the lives of folk.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    mohrb, I appreciate what you're saying, but as cofty said, you are exaggerating a fair bit in representing the tone of this forum. Only a few posters here are promoting tin-foil hat theories about the Society. It is true that many here use strong language regarding the Society, and I don't personally approve of that, but we've had the debate numerous times about the image we give to believing JWs, and the problem is that the forum is primarily here for people to express themselves freely, not to proselytize to JWs (but yes, there are a few "true believers" here as well).

    Despite the vitriol that some express for the org., the fact is that there are still lots of level-headed posters writing intelligently on various thought-provoking subjects. It's a very JW-esque approach to take stock of the occasionally chaotic forum and then suggest that we need to organize and get our ducks in a row. Can't happen, won't happen. Former JWs are a diverse group of people. Many of us simply do not agree with each other on many matters. That's okay. Vive la difference. Also, there will never be a widely-organized movement among active, doubting JWs. The climate within the org. is too fearful for people to raise their voices in dissent.

    Finally I'd just like to say that many of us were once mentally where you are, and as we continued to learn more information about the org. and the Bible and the world at large... well, we got to where we are now! Your thoughts are very much still being corraled by the Society's information control. If you take the time to read the more scholarly topics around here, you will start to consider the more fundamental questions that underlie the assumptions you are making now. Then you'll understand why we have no interest in reforming the Society.

  • OneEyedJoe
    OneEyedJoe

    Apognophos: [...] Only a few posters here are promoting tin-foil hat theories about the Society. [...]

    I'd just point out that this may not be true from the perspective of an active JW. A large number of us here are well aware of the UN NGO stuff, as well as the way in which the organization protects child molesters and knowingly allows them to exist in the congregation without so much as a word of warning to parents. In some cases it seems they actually assign a known/confessed pedophile to study with a child one-on-one. Then, of course there's the mexico/malawai disparity, etc, etc.

    To the eyes of an active JW, all this seems like crazy tin-foil hat ideas that couldn't possibly have even a grain of truth to them. The problem is that they're ALL TRUE (and just the tip of the iceburg). So, yes, the folks who post crazy theories on here are certainly a small minority, to an active and fully indoctrinated JW, it all seems like insane ramblings of bitter appostates (I should know, that's what I thought at first until I saw black-and-white evidence from the WTS and independant sources).

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