Second death-what does it REALLY mean?

by FRUSR8TD 37 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • FRUSR8TD
    FRUSR8TD

    in this thread..
    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=28021&site=3

    Bleep said:

    Any evil doers at that time will have to be judged and put to death yet one last time.
    I got into an interesting discussion one time on this. The witness idea is that there is no eternal suffering in hell because of the second death thing. How can you be suffering when your dead?

    I was talking with an elder from my wifes KH about this. My reply to this is;

    In the bible (don't recall which scripture) it is said that sin is dead to god (or something to that effect). This does not mean that sin does not exist...just that god chooses to see the good in people rather than the bad. Now, it does say "this is the second death" AND that those not saved will burn for eternity in the lake of fire. My conclusion from all of this is that yes indeed the sinners will be in the lake of fire and the second death part, is that you will be dead to god just as sin is dead to god. How can there be "eternal suffering" otherwise.

    I also told him that I had a buddy in High school that was an athiest. He said that even if there was a god the idea of "slavery" to him was disgusting. So going by this logic...what the WT teaches would be perfect for him. He gets just exactly what he wants...where is the eternal punishment?

    Well this elder said "that's an interesting veiw, I have not heard that before". Then he said "look at what this passage says", and went on to something totally off the subject. I instantly caught on to the old trick but just did not have the strength to pursue it. Besides I made my point.

    what do you guys think?

    (sorry for any spelling errors)

  • FRUSR8TD
    FRUSR8TD

    Anyone....anyone?

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    I think it has something to do with the James Bond movie, "You only live twice."

    "As every one knows, there are mistakes in the Bible" - The Watchtower, April 15, 1928, p. 126
    Believe in yourself, not mythology.
    <x ><

  • FRUSR8TD
    FRUSR8TD

    Hmmm...now there's a thought....but i thought movies like that were against JW law.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    It means the first time you died,it did`nt work....(LOL)...OUTLAW

  • Unclepenn1
    Unclepenn1

    The second death is everlasting destruction. You might say that you are dead to God, but I believe it to be rather in the sense that the first death was spiritual and physical (Adam died physically,but also spiritually because his relationship to God was dead because of sin), and the second death is that of no return, no more hope for the person to respond to God's lifeline that He offers to people through Christ.

    I have been meeting with a witness every week and we have pretty much avoided this topic although touched on it briefly. It occurs to me that there are too many scriptures that wouldnt make sense if we were just destroyed. Jesus said about Judas 'It would have been better for him if he were never born'. WHY? If Jehovah is just going to put him to sleep for all eternity, who cares what you do in this life?! Also, in Revelation it speaks of the wicked having no rest day or night. Well, it seems to be that annihilation is rest. Are they going to be wishing they were alive? NO, they're dead right?

    Good topic:)

    Penn

  • Larsguy
    Larsguy

    This is a passage where the Bible uses symbolic language and where more than one understanding can be obtained, but "interpretation belongs to god."

    Thus I'll just say, in defense of the WTS' position which is also my own, that the lake of fire is a "symbolic" place is because "death" and "hades", two symbolic abstract concepts are also thrown into the lake of fire. I think that's an interesting point. How is an abstract destroyed in a literal place.

    Furthermore, the lake of fire is called the "second death" specifically. That is understood because for the majority of mankind who will be resurrected after the millennium for judgment day, there is a potential for a "second death". The resurrection will be of both the righteous and the unrighteous. The unrighteous will be judged and then undergo a "second death". Death in the Bible is a state of total unconsciuosness. Thus if the lake of fire, though described as a place of eternal torment forever and ever is also called the "second death" then one can attribute a symbolic meaning to the eternal torment from the standpoint of the Bible writer.

    Another aspect of this to consider with respect to the fire and torment being symbolic is that we all know what happens when you burn something up. This sounds like a lake of lava. But if you throw someone in a lake of lava they eventually burn completely up. So how is it that this lake of fire simply torments you forever and never destroys you? And how is it a second "death" if you're still alive?

    Thus, the the lake of fire is a symbolic place that addresses those who have been condemned forever by God, missing out on life, the torment and torture could be considered as eternal since they will not return from that place, unlike Hades, the grave, where all persons will return from after dying, to either get eternal life or be condemned to eternal death, condemned forever, which is colorfully described as eternal torment in fire.

    So I think there is a basis to believe the fire an torment are spiritually symbolic and not literal as does the WTS. But, of course, I acknowledge that this scriptrue and the one parable about the Rich Man and Lazarus showing the Rich Man after dying in firey torment certain by the symbolism suggests there is a literal place of eternal torment. But since the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus when fulfilled deals with a time when the Rich Man is simply condemned but still active, firey torment again makes the fire symbolic of spiritual rejection and condemnation.

    Finally, the Jews had a concept of Gehenna because of the literal fires kept burning for their trash and dead bodies outside the city. The significant aspect of that was that the fires were kept burning continually and were never put out. So there is another aspect of this connected to the symbolism of Gehenna, a final place of condemnation for evildoers where the fire consumes and is never put out, again, simply lending itself to the idea of a FINAL, everlasting judgment.

    As far as Judas being better off not having been born. This might have to do with the concept that no name is better than a bad name in the grand scheme of things. Thus perhaps the shame and total horror of what he did compared to what was possible, in contrast, is worse than had he never existed at all. For instance, if you had a choice of not ever being born, or living to one day kill your own wife and three small children in some mad rage and then yourself being executed in the electric chair, which would you prefer. Is it better that you live to kill your own family and die in shame or better that you never live at all? I think most persons would prefer never being born to living to kill an innocent human being.

    Just my 2 cents (I know it looks like 7.5 cents, but....-smile)

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Larsguy:
    The way you reasoned that is sooooo JW.
    Did you read all of that out of the "Reasoning Book"?
    IMHO you don't even address the issues, you sidestep them.

    Gawd I am so irritated by your post!!!!
    It's as if you are using all the Wt mechanisms to make your point, whilst avoiding the issues raised!!!

    For example:
    "Death in the Bible is a state of total unconsciuosness"
    Is it?
    That's the definitive absolute meaning of this word, is it?

    "This sounds like a lake of lava..."
    The argument that follows is based on your subjective interpretation of what John reports seeing, sidestepping what it actually says.

    "So I think there is a basis to believe..."
    "I acknowledge...But..."
    "deals with a time when the Rich Man is simply condemned but still active..."
    Speculation presented as fact.
    How is he "simpy condemned but still active", when Jesus has just stated that they both died?

    "This might have to do with the concept..."
    More speculation presented as fact.

    Now I'm not yet convinced that there's an eternal place of torment, and should probably get around to doing some serious study on the subject. Howerver it seems to me that the JW's haven't done all their homework, either, and are blatantly ignoring many scriptures.

  • FRUSR8TD
    FRUSR8TD
    Thus, the the lake of fire is a symbolic place that addresses those who have been condemned forever by God, missing out on life, the torment and torture could be considered as eternal since they will not return from that place,

    Hmmm..since the "eternal punishment" is depicted as a lake of fire, or a place of eternal suffering in MANY places in the bible and only a second death once in reveliation...it seems more logical to me that a second death is "dead to god" since god explains sin the same way...your argument still does not address the mindset (shared by MANY people in the world) that servitude to anyone...even god is unthinkable. from the WT perspective where is the intented "motivation" to serve the lord. If someone refuses to do so then they will simply die and ceace to exist...for some,this is WAY better than eternal servitude. Under the WT idea I just don't see the motivation to serve god...it is so much easier in this world to give in to basic instinct and do what ever you want...what ever makes you feel good...if there is no eternal price to pay...what's stoping you?...People of this mind think that eternal servitude is a horrible price.

  • Bleep
    Bleep

    Umm yea it is a bad thing to do what you want. Jehovah has not given us many many rules to live by, but he gave us principals to go by. One devine rule is structured with having a saying "do onto others as you would like done to you". This involves being nice to evil ones.

    Jesus was tempted two times by Satan to test Jehovah. Why test our creator who wants us all to live life again. Yes the real life of everlasting. Even the pope knows how to show love to a criminal. He knows that he might change his life course for the better. He also knows that being at such a certain state of sinfull tendencies will not last forever.

    Jehovahs pupose for mankind was live in peace and just having your fill of life. To live longer than trees and fill our brains to capacity. More that a small percentage than we use now. Oh how great it will be to remember all your friends names, names of your favorite plant or how to express your true feelings.
    Jehovah will do anything to preserve this and will have to put evil followers of Satan to a permanent resting place. The people that are dead now are just sleeping. The breath of life will come to all your loved ones so that they can be judged for life. I hope that most will be marked for life, but many will take the braud and spacious road to destruction.

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