How much of our mind is our own?

by jgnat 48 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Oubliette

The concepts of free will and cause and effect or not mutually exclusive. I drop a ball, it falls to earth.

I offer you money in exchange for committing a crime, you have a choice to accept or not. The ball has no choice in the matter. It cannot say, "I like it here, I'll stay."

Apognophos: I don't think this undermines the basis of justice and punishment. People who are dangerous need to be removed from society so they can't hurt more people, regardless of whether they can help themselves.

David Eagleman and I would both agree with you on this point.

Apognophos: People who do a bad thing need to be punished to provide the impetus to change their ways ...

Here, I believe, you contradict yourself. If someone can "change their ways," then they must have the free will to do so. If they do not, then attempts at rehabilitation are pointless. I found the same problem in Eagleman's reasoning. He argues that some criminals cannot be rehabilitated and should just be "warehoused" (Eagleman, p. 189). However, he argues strongly that some people can and should be rehabilitated. (ibid, pp. 182 - 185). Sadly, he never explicitly addresses what I see as a contradiction in his thesis: we have no (or very) little free will, and yet criminals can change and should be rehabilitated when possible.

By the way, the invisible ogre is no longer standing in the corner of my room. I sent him to yours. He's watching you now and sending me telepathic messages.

If you could see him, this is what he'd look like:
Apognophos

I offer you money in exchange for committing a crime, you have a choice to accept or not. The ball has no choice in the matter. It cannot say, "I like it here, I'll stay."

My point is that the choice of whether I would accept your offer is not my own, it's the product of (1) my financial circumstances, (2) the risk vs. reward as appraised by my brain, (3) the genes which either give me a cautious personality that weighs things carefully or make me inclined to plunge headlong into risky endeavors, (4) my experiences and upbringing which have taught me certain lessons, and some ephemeral factors like (5) my mood at the time, based on what's happened to me lately, my blood sugar levels, etc.

It may feel like I'm making a choice, but all that's happening is that the computer in my head is weighing factors and arriving at a conclusion that would be predictable with enough information on the state of my brain and body.

If someone can "change their ways," then they must have the free will to do so.

Don't be misled by the imprecisions of language. That was why I brought up snails. Look at this article on animal intelligence and how even the simplest animals can learn. If they can learn to differentiate between reward and non-reward and seek out the reward, does that mean that slugs, bees, etc. have free will? Isn't it hardwired in us to look for a reward, for survival purposes? So if someone is punished for a crime, and decides not to do it anymore, isn't it the inevitable outcome of the fact that animals stop doing things that hurt them?
EndofMysteries

I asked that very question years ago but in a different sense.

Years ago doctors said/thought I had depression and since brain chemicals can't be measured it's an experimental process.

Throughout that time, I had been put on effexor and even adderall.

Up until that time, I had believed that everything about a person and their personality was a CHOICE. If a person was angry, they just didn't have self control and they allowed themselves to be that way, etc. What happened though changed my whole perspective.

I reacted very badly with effexor. I am very mild, never the kind to pick a fight, etc. Effexor made me a ticking time bomb. I felt the change though, it was almost as if I was possessed. I remember somebody did something so minor one day that normally I or anybody wouldn't of even been slightly offended by it, but it took every ounce of will power I had to not knock them out. I walked away and kicked a door so hard i almost broke it. At that point I cold turkeyed the stuff. Then there was adderall, the first few days I felt super good and super spiritual and wanting peace for the whole world, etc and everybody around me seemed so down and depressed when they should all be much much happier.

Both of those experiences showed me how much chemicals have an impact on how we are. It also made me question if many violent attacks, rampages, family killings, etc, are truly from the person or if they had a reaction to a med like those or withdrawal.

Marijuana, etc, is illegal but drugs like Effexor SHOULD BE BANNED! I did google research and found many who become criminally violent from it.
Oubliette

EOM: Up until that time, I had believed that everything about a person and their personality was a CHOICE.

Understood, but there is a wide gap between thinking EVERYTHING is a choice and NOTHING.

These are exactly the kinds of examples that David Eagleman discusses in his book. It really raises some intriguing and difficult to answer questions.

I'm glad you found some medication that is working for you now.
Londo111

Apognophos: since you've no freewill and my sink is full, come over and do my dishes!

If freewill doesn't exist, why bother with democracy?

I believe in freewill, but freewill is not unlimited. We can't control everything about ourselves, but it doesn't mean the choices don't exist in all circumstances.
Oubliette

Apognophos: Don't be misled by the imprecisions of language.

I agree that words in a sentence do not work the same as number and/or variables in a math formula, but generally problems with "imprecision of language" or semantics is the result of the orginator of the message not saying what they intended.

Apognophos: It may feel like I'm making a choice, but all that's happening is that the computer in my head is weighing factors and arriving at a conclusion that would be predictable with enough information on the state of my brain and body.

I also agree that the 5 factors you mentioned, as well as many others, influence the outcome of your actions, but I disagree with your conclusion that your actions would be predictable. First, the human mind is way too complex to know how anyone individual will act/react to a given input. We may be able to predict likely or probably outcomes, but never with absolute certainty. Countless experiments, and I mean those conducted over a century, have proven this conclusively.

That being said, you have not proven your assertion that those factors considered removes any and all choice from the individual.

Have you considered the legal and moral implications of the position that free will does not exist? Our entire legal system is based on the premise that normal individuals possess free will. The entire concept of moral culpability rests on this belief.

To be sure there are cases of diminished capacity due to mental illness or cognitive deficiency, but even those mitigation factors are not entirely exculpatory in most cases.
Apognophos

I'm not inclined to answer most of what's above, because I already answered your questions in my prior posts before you asked them. Please read my posts again, as you also neglected to answer the questions I left there.

I just want to point out that even playing with the notion of possible free will, as I did, was unnecessary and was done out of politeness. The more logical, and less charitable, response would have simply been to require you guys to prove that free will actually exists and is not a fanciful construct. How on earth does free will work? Can you possibly suggest a mechanism for it in the brain? Can you give even one example of someone using their free will, at any point in their life?
Oubliette
Apognophos: Can you possibly suggest a mechanism for it in the brain?

It is not necessary for us to be able to explain the mechanism for observable phenomena in order to identify that it exists.

Apognophos: Can you give even one example of someone using their free will, at any point in their life?

Yes. I can give you two:
1. I chose to join the religion known as Jehovah's Witnesses because I naively believed their propaganda, and
2. When I came to realize the JWs are NOT "the only True Religion" as they claim, and in fact are nothing other than one more in a series of high-control, authoritarian religious groups (ie, a cult), I chose to leave, albeit not without some very serious consequence to the long-term relationships with my children.
You seemed a bit snippy in your last post and I'm not sure why. I haven't intended to say anything that would cause you to react that way. If I have, I freely apologize.

That being said, I did read all of your previous posts and I believe addressed the issues your raised. Although I did not answer all of your questons directly, I certainly did respond to your question concerning learning and its relation to free will.

I will, however-for the sake of clarification--add this: although we as humans clearly do have autonomic systems and instinctual behavior, we are also clearly not bees or slugs.
sparky1

Free will works like this:

If I make the conscious choice to not go to work on any given day, I pick up the phone, call my boss and tell him that I won't be in to work today. End of story.

There is certainly nothing complicated about that.
Apognophos

I think you guys are fundamentally misunderstanding the question about the existence of free will. You're confusing actions with free choice. The assertion by determinists is that the actions one takes are unavoidable. So, for instance, calling out from work is a result of getting sick (unavoidable exposure to a germ) or simply being tired and needing a day off (built-up stress from work or in your personal life).

Joining the JWs was a product of our lives at the time -- the existential anxieties we were pre-disposed to have, the vicissitudes that placed us in an uncomfortable position where we felt isolated and in need of help, etc., or simply being born into it and wanting to please our parents.

If you agree with everything I've said so far except the direct statement "There is no free will", then you are agreeing with determinism even as you deny that you are. Personally I am unable to tell the difference between bees and humans, so if you can explain it instead of assuming I see the difference, it might be helpful. Bees like pollen and they seek out pollen. Humans like ___?, and yet they don't ___?

How much of our mind is our own?

Share this