Are we imperfect from birth?

by Pinku 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Pinku
    Pinku

    Are we imperfect from birth?

    There may be some scriptures that say we are imperfect from birth because of (fictitious) Adam’s sin. Such verses make no sense like many other prima-facie meaningless verses such as Joshua 10:13; Isaiah 40:26; John 3:13;11:26 …….

    However, there are scriptures that say we are capable of displaying perfection which is already within us. (Job 1:8; Habakkuk 2:4; Mathew 5:48 ……. ) When Jesus spoke of perfection, he was realistic and did not imply perfection as belonging to our PHYSICAL body whose very nature is growth, maturity and decay. Look at his words: “Be PERFECT as your heavenly Father is” and “Father is spirit.” (Mathew 5:48; John 4:24) How? By acting beneficially towards others, without expecting any reward in return. (Mathew 5:44-48) This statement of Jesus has universal approval (if someone tells you: “I love you BECAUSE I NEED YOU,” you call that love selfishness and abhor it). Thus Jesus linked perfection with our inner self from which we can draw out any virtue to any extent we like.—Mathew 7:12

    This has been discerned in the East and the West alike. In the East sages say God’s qualities (truth, benevolence and beauty)* could be seen in the creation. Hence we have the famous quote from Socrates:

    “Speak only what is truthful;

    Speak that truth ONLY IF it is beneficial to the listener;

    Present that truth to the listener in most pleasant [beautiful] manner.”

    In Plato’s Republic, Socrates talked about the nature of virtue and argued that it could not be taught for virtue already existed within our inner self which could be drawn upon at will and utilized. Interestingly, the word virtue comes from Latin, virtus, meaning strength and refers to the inherent qualities and powers of our inner self. This has been clearly understood by another Eastern Philosopher who declared: “When your constant virtue does not go astray, you will return to the condition which has no limit.” (Lao-tzu)

    Virtue lie in each and every one of us, awakened only to the extent that we contemplate them. Sometimes our virtues are so natural that we do not even realize their presence. When others admire a particular quality that they see in us, we often tend to shrug off, saying: “Really? You think so? May be, I don’t know.” To us that particular virtue others noticed is just like an arm or a leg, a basic part of us. No wonder people seek cover of darkness to perform vices and often deny having performed them even when confronted with evidence!

    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    *Foot Note:

    They looked at the fruit-bearing trees. They are actually an interplay of truth (or eternity) and transience—memory of all future generations of a particular tree remains protected in the memory of its seed, hence there is something like a substratum in the seed that can be called TRUTH. Tree clothes its seed with sweet, nutritious flesh which teaches us BENEVOLENCE, and tree presents the fruit in appealing colors which teaches us BEAUTY. Hence Socrates taught: Whatever you speak, speak only the TRUTH, convey it if it is only BENEFICIAL to the listener, and convey it only if you can do it in a most pleasant manner (or with BEAUTY)

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    "Look at his words: “Be PERFECT as your heavenly Father is” and “Father is spirit.” (Mathew 5:48; John 4:24) How? By acting beneficially towards others, without expecting any reward in return." . So you and Jesus both agree that this World Drowning, Armageddon bringing entity acts for our benefit and expects nothing in return? C'mon . ...

  • Rattigan350
    Rattigan350

    No, we are imperfect from conception.

  • Joe Grundy
    Joe Grundy

    This is a good question, though nothing to do with religion.

    Factors have already impacted on the new-born baby - genetic inheritance, matters influencing the health and well-being of the mother before and during gestation, etc. - and its environment upon and following its arrival will shape it for the rest of its life.

    'Perfect' needs to be defined, of course, and I would submit that no-one and nothing is 'perfect' because if they/it was that would be an end to development.

  • opusdei1972
    opusdei1972

    I currently don't believe in the original sin. We born as perfect as the first man ( or men?). Indeed, currently, Jews do not believe in the doctrine of original sin. As I see, this idea started with Paul:

    For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. (1 Cor 15:22)

    Nevertheless, Augustine, in the fifth century, developed more deeply the doctrine of the original sin. But it is absurd to say that we are imperfect sinners since our birth. Moreover, as you know, Paul contradicts the following statement:

    "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deut 24:16)

    So, if we all die in Adam, Jehovah is not only unjust, but he is also responsible of our imperfect birth, and though Jesus supposedly died for our sins, men continue to die, so where is that ransom?

  • galaxie
    galaxie

    Imperfection can only be measured against a standard of perfection.

    Which yardstick you use to gauge this standard must come under scrutiny.

    In the case of a human birth, what would the perfect standard be ? Have there been any ' perfect ' humans born ?

    Imo the terms perfect or imperfect do not apply.

    Every new born baby must be given the nurturing and opportunity to develop into a healthy free thinking adult to make the best of their life without having to question if they were borm imperfect.

    Best wishes.

  • Bangalore
    Bangalore

    Hi Pinku

    Are you a member of the Bramha Kumaris?

    Bangalore

  • blondie
    blondie

    Are you aware of how the WTS explains how Jesus escaped the genetic stain of imperfection?

    Think about it, if Adam and if were imperfect and became imperfect, did and how did their genetic makeup change so the passed on imperfection?

    Did God alter it?

    The WTS teaches that the anointed die as imperfect humans and since 1918 have been resurrected as perfect spirit creatures yet says that imperfect humans on earth after Armageddon need a thousand years to reach human perfection. How does that happen, does God put back the perfection gene he took out of Adam and Eve. Does he seed it and it takes time? But not the anointed, the same imperfect humans become perfect instantly upon resurrection.

    Back to Jesus, the WTS says that Jesus was human, not have god and half man, that he had to be human to pay back the human life Adam lost.

    How did that happen since Eve was an imperfect human and passed on imperfect human genes? Did the genetic material the holy spirit infused in her womb override those imperfect genes? Or was Eve just a surrogate? Where is that in the bible?

  • blondie
    blondie

    Some quotes interesting to me and my research over the years on perfection: Remember just reporting not supporting

    *** w06 10/1 p. 5 You Can Live Forever ***

    That is why scientists will never find the key to endless life in man’s genetic code. The key lies elsewhere. According to the Bible, the root cause of mankind’s death is moral and legal, not biological.The means for restoring everlasting life—Jesus’ ransom sacrifice—is likewise legal.

    *** lp chap. 15 p. 174 par. 14 The End of Sickness and Death ***

    But in the new system of things Christ will administer the full benefit of His sacrifice so that the inherited weaknesses, the genetic “misinformation” received from a person’s ancestors, will be corrected

    *** it-1 pp. 348-349 Body ***

    In order for Jesus to be “the last Adam” (1Co 15:45) and to be “a corresponding ransom for all [mankind],” his fleshly body had to be a real human body, no incarnation. (1Ti 2:5, 6; Mt 20:28) It had to be perfect, for it was to be sacrificed to present to Jehovah God the purchase price. (1Pe 1:18, 19; Heb 9:14) No imperfect human could provide the needed price. (Ps 49:7-9) For this reason Jesus said to his Father when presenting himself for baptism, to begin his sacrificial course: “You prepared a body for me.”—Heb 10:5.

    *** it-1 p. 842 Flesh ***

    Jehovah proved that human flesh can be sinless. “God, by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh.” (Ro 8:3) Eventually, through the provision of Christ’s sacrifice, all who exercise faith will become perfect, and God’s righteous laws will then be kept perfectly by mankind.—Re 21:4.

    *** it-2 p. 56 Jesus Christ ***

    Mary was a descendant of the sinner Adam, hence herself imperfect and sinful. The question therefore is raised as to how Jesus, Mary’s “firstborn” (Lu 2:7), could be perfect and free from sin in his physical organism. While modern geneticists have learned much about laws of heredity and about dominant and recessive characteristics, they have had no experience in learning the results of uniting perfection with imperfection, as was the case with Jesus’ conception. From the results revealed in the Bible, it would appear that the perfect male life-force (causing the conception) canceled out any imperfection existent in Mary’s ovum, thereby producing a genetic pattern (and embryonic development) that was perfect from its start. Whatever the case, the operation of God’s holy spirit at the time guaranteed the success of God’s purpose.

    As the angel Gabriel explained to Mary, “power of the Most High” overshadowed her so that what was born was holy, God’s Son. God’s holy spirit formed, as it were, a protective wall so that no imperfection or hurtful force could damage, or blemish, the developing embryo, from conception on.—Lu 1:35.

    *** w67 5/15 p. 319 Questions From Readers ***

    ● How can it be said that Jesus could have produced perfect children from an imperfect wife? Would not the children, according to the laws of genetics, have inherited imperfection from their mother?—F. S., England.

    The basis for offering this as a possibility is the example of what occurred in the case of Jesus’ own birth. He was born perfect even though he had an imperfect mother, Mary.

    In saying this, we do not deny the scientifically demonstrated fact that the union of a human sperm and a human egg cell or ovum, both of which contain chromosomes and genes, results eventually in a new organism with hereditary characteristics of both parents. This process has been observed and can now hardly be called a theory.

    In Jesus’ own case it appearsthat Jehovah used one of the ova in the womb of the virgin, but imperfect, woman Mary. (Rom. 3:23) Had he not done so, Jesus, from a physical standpoint, would not have been a real descendant of Abraham and King David, as had been foretold. (Gen. 22:18; Isa. 11:1, 2; Luke 3:23-38) Thus we believe that Jesus looked like a Jew, that he had human characteristics that were observable in his mother.

    The question may now arise, Would not Jesus have inherited some imperfection from Mary? No, the Bible plainly shows that Jesus was born perfect. (1 Pet. 2:22; John 8:46) In this way he was the equivalent of perfect Adam and could serve as the ransom to take away sins. (Heb. 7:26; 9:26; Rom. 5:18) We should keep in mind that we are not dealing just with genetic laws of dominant and recessive characteristics. No, perfection and imperfection are also involved. We have no experience with the results of uniting perfection with imperfection. Scientists cannot measure human perfection or imperfection resulting from sin. Nor can they predict the powerful effect a perfect male sperm would have on an imperfect ovum. But it is evident from what occurred in Jesus’ case that the perfect male part of the reproduction dominated the imperfection inherent in Mary. Jesus’ perfect Father transferred the perfect life of his Son to the womb of Mary and the result was a wholly perfect offspring, Jesus.—Gal. 4:4.

    Accepting what the inspired Scriptures say took place as to Jesus’ conception and birth, we can conclude that by reason of Jesus’ being entirely perfect he could have fathered perfect children even with an imperfect wife. Of course, that was not God’s will for Jesus. (Heb. 10:5-10; Matt. 26:39) Nonetheless, that potential was apparently there.

    *** g99 8/8 p. 30 From Our Readers ***

    On page 8, you stated that “God transferred the life of Jesus to the womb of a Jewish virgin.” Since Jesus was perfect, does this mean that no trace of Adam’s genes was in him?

    J. G., United States

    Prior to Jesus’ conception, the angel Gabriel told Mary: “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.” (Luke 1:35) Evidently, God’s holy spirit caused an ovum in Mary’s womb to become fertile, transferring the life of God’s firstborn Son from the spirit realm to earth. The holy spirit no doubt saw to it that this Son’s perfect male life force canceled out any Adamic imperfection in Mary’s ovum, while retaining certain genetic traits. Likely, Jesus resembled Mary.—ED.

    *** w66 9/1 pp. 533-534 par. 19 Jesus, the “Object of Hostility,” Upholds Jehovah’s Godship ***

    When Jesus was anointed as King-designate by God’s spirit at the Jordan River in 29 C.E., he, in effect, held ownership to the entire earth with all its wealth and animals. Truly, Jesus Christ was legally far richer than ancient Job ever was. Jesus as a perfect man could have had perfect children even though he might have married an imperfect wife. Why? Because perfection is determined by the father and not by the mother. This is proved in the case of the perfect father, Jehovah, using the imperfect mother, Mary, to bring forth the perfect male child Jesus. In this manner Jesus could have populated the entire earth with perfect humans in fulfillment of the symbol of Job’s ten children.

    *** w58 1/15 p. 63 Questions From Readers ***

    Why, after receiving from God the express command to multiply and fill the earth, did Adam and Eve refrain from carrying out this procreation mandate while they were perfect in the garden of Eden?

    Asking this question concerning Adam and Eve is like trying to meddle in the private affairs of a Christian married couple today, and asking why they have had no children as yet. Jehovah God set no definite time for Adam and Eve to begin having perfect children to fill the earth. They being perfect, their intercourse together sexually would be for the purpose of reproducing the human kind. Evidently there was no intercourse between them for the begetting of children while they were in the garden of Eden. Evidently there was no begetting of a child before they were expelled from the garden of Eden; otherwise their first son, born after their expulsion and named Cain, would have been born perfect of his mother Eve, just as Jesus was born perfect from his imperfect mother Mary. Why? Because Cain would have had the perfect Adam as his father.

    *** w53 9/1 p. 517 The Fleshly Body of Jesus ***

    . But having a perfect Father as his life source, he did not inherit imperfection from his imperfect mother Mary.

  • Terry
    Terry

    The Jehovah's Witness doctrines invented the idea of PERFECTION in a rather bogus assertion Adam and Eve were made "perfect."

    How silly!

    Perfection is entirely a contextual consideration and not an absolute.

    A fork is perfect for eating peas. It is not perfect for eating soup.

    Logically, you cannot simply make the statement "a fork is a perfect eating utensil" outside of context.

    A "perfect" (from Jehovah's viewpoint) human couple in Eden would NOT possibly disobey his direct injunctions.

    Perfect IS as perfect DOES.

    Therefore . . .

    the Watchtower use of the characterization of "perfection" is totally illogical, arbitrary, whimsical and capricious.

    Fatious theology from fatuous minds should not be taken seriously.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit