What's your reading of Matthew 19:28 ?

by EdenOne 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Bobcat

  Bart:

  What happened to Dan, did they get send home early from the party??

  The BECNT-Revelation commentary (Grant R. Osborne, pp.313-14) offers this thought:

  The list of the twelve tribes is problematic, for no list in the OT has this exact order. It has been generally recognized that the order follows the order of the patriarchs according to their mothers (with certain changes), seen especially in Gen. 35:23-26. The matriarchal order is: (1) Leah: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun; (2) Rachel: Joseph, Benjamin; (3) Zilpah: Gad, Asher; (4) Bilhah: Dan, Naphtali. . .

  There are two particular difficulties: Judah is first rather than Reuben (Jacob's firstborn son); and Manassah the son of Joseph replaces Dan and is listed alongside Joseph. There are twenty lists of tribes in the OT, and they disagree quite remarkably with one another. . .

  The absence of Dan is normally explained by the fact that the tribe fell into idolatry. When the tribe of Dan settled in Laish (Judg 18), they took household gods, a carved image, and an idol and set them up in their new home (18:14-15, 18-21, 30-31). In 1 Kings 12:25-30 Jeroboam set up golden calves in two places, Bethel and Dan. In light of the problem with idolatry in the cults of Pergamum and Thyatira (Rev 2:14, 20) and the problem of idols in the book [of Revelation] (9:20; 21:8; 22:15), this explanation would make a great deal of sense. There is no direct exegetical evidence that this was the case, however, and Baukham for one thinks this was purely arbitrary: Dan was omitted in order to make the list twelve ( 1993b: 223; so also Aune 1998a: 462-63) Still, I think that the idolatry theory is viable and in keeping with the data.

  [End of quote]

  So, possibly, yes, Dan may have been sent home early . . . for one reason or another.

  Redeemer:

  why would he call himself the Son of Man?

  The phrase "Son of Man" is usually seen as a reference to the Messianic character in Daniel 7:13, 14. Matthew, especially has numerous references to this passage. (See my post # 1040 here, about midway through my post.)
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  Bart Belteshassur

  Redeemer- why would he call himself the son of man?

  As I understand the arimaic term for son of or servent of is bar, as in the name Barabbas meaning servant/son of the father, or Barnabbas servant/son of the prophet. Therefore it follows the the term "son of man" would be Baradam, and indecate a name, or a position in some heirachy, the term "son of God" would also indicate a different position when the induvidual was acting in that role. I believe that sadducesses in the position of High Priest refered to themselves as GOD, note not YHWH as that would have been blasphamy, and therefore could be a term to indicate the use of a substitute.

  It is interesting that the tribes are also used in the temple scroll found at the Dead Sea, and whilst six of the twelve positions of the tribes are changed Dan is included in the list, and Joseph remaining singular. In the Revelation tribes Asher replaces the postion of Dan. In the temple scroll the tribes are placed in order of daily prayer sequence and refer to their time in the day to pray, set out as a sun dial. The monastic Essenes used a solar calander not the lunar as the Temple cult.

  This may show that Jesus was saying that the twelve disciples would be judging the twelve monastic orders of the Essenes, and thus indicating that lay people could take on the role previously only allowed to be held by livites, and therefore equalling the status in religous terms of Sadducesses Livites and Pharacesses nobility.
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  Cold Steel

  OP: The context shows that Jesus was talking to his twelve apostles. if they were to “sit in thrones” and judge the twelve tribes of Israel, where does that leave the apostle Paul?

  The reference to “thrones” is, of course, figurative. And yes, the Quorum of the Twelve are appointed to be special witnesses of Christ and judges under his authority. There is no reason that other apostles also can sit in judgment over the house of Israel, including Paul, Matthias and Bartholomew (and any apostle that we might not have record of). Certainly the reference is not to “spiritual” Israel, for if that were true the scriptures would find a way of stating it.
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  anonymouz

  That is Re-Genesis (re-creation; Rom8:18-22) of Last Adamic restoration of all creation from the patriarchical access point (Jesus Christ; Last Adam human sacrifice replacement link) of Genesis 1:26-28 whose life blessing was corrupted into the death curse (Gen3:14-17; Heb2:14) affecting mankind and all creation of earth into systemic death (Satan) as the top hierarchical power of Genesis 1:26-28 accessed by the Adamic sin and invitation to the Devil. (Eze28:12-17; Gen6);

  Since the 144000 are "out of" the 12 tribes (Rev7:4), thus not all of the twelve tribes, the Christ access to that righteous "seed" (Gen3:15) based Mosaic covenant allows a "blessing" (Gen12:3; 22:17-18) to be recovered through the old covenant Christ secured unto himself as national Israel rejected him and broke the covenant requirement (if/then statement Ex19), as Christ transferred all rights, benefits and blessings into the New Covenent and basis of the Kingdom covenant whereby the thrones (and children John1:12; Isa8:18; Isa53:10) and the "bride" is established to perform that re-birth regeneration of all creation lost in Adam, into Last Adam; (1Cor15). (The Eternal Father of recovered mankind; Isa9:6).

  By precedent in God's will and purpose Christ recovers all "twelve tribes" as the Isaac prefigured link (Christ) to those twelve tribes returned to God (the Abraham symbol; the Gen 3 "seed" link back to Adam's children), and thus Eternal Father Christ rebirths ALL mankind from Abel forward, replacing dead Adam (Gen3:14-17), removing those curses (Rev22:1-3), and returning all mankind from Rev21-22 to ReGenesis 1:26-28 in a blessing and in a perfect "God's image" in Christ as human being in the totality of that sacrifice as blood, body, and whole perfect "gift" new man; (Heb8-10); applied to all cooperative mankind fully. ANy resurrection must be into Christ Last Adam, Adam is unavailable for a second life link to be used again.

  The "twelve tribes" symbolically at this point are thus all mankind recovered into Christ Last Adam, Melchizedek immortal High-Priest (Heb7), son of David rightful King (Ps2; 110), Son (Isaac symbol) of God Jehovah (Abraham symbol), the promised righteous "seed", "second man out of heaven", thereby also Adam's replacement for systemic eternal life recovery, dependent on obedience to God, which was the primary default in Adam and the woman's disobedience. Thus Christ as "Last Adam" can also recover the Noachian and post Adamic world to the flood (and into it) of what can be recovered, and the "seed" goes back to Genesis 3's reference from that time as a promise to children of Adam and Eve, whose genetic and human definition cannot be present after full "Re - Creation".

  Christ provided a perfect human replacement as a whole sacrifice, and a perfect spirit form of re-birth pattern to facilitate the implied Eternal Mother (his Bride) "new creation" for the Eternal Father's regenerative recovery. (Rev21-22 connect to Gen1 thereby a loop).

  (Romans 8:18-22) Consequently I reckon that the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now.

  Contray to Bethel non-anointed and anti-Christian subversions, that "the creation" "groaning together and being in pain together" is more than just the human element, but all creation, the WHOLE Earth planetary life system members (like animals), in fact all planet earth as a whole life and system, affected in the Genesis 1:26-28 cascading life blessing lost - but being recovered in Christ; (Ps 133);

  (Ezekiel 47:9) And it must occur that every living soul that swarms, in every place to which the double-size torrent comes, will get life. And it must occur that there will be very many fish, because there is where this water will certainly come, and the [seawater] will be healed, and everything will be alive where the torrent comes.

  Also the "enslavement to corruption" is also general death systemic planetary decay, not just sin, but due to it as the systemic root by which Satan accessed all planetary life, to be instead transformed by Christ into timeless imperishability as in Eden:

  (Ezekiel 47:12) “And alongside the torrent there will come up, along its bank on this side and on that side, all sorts of trees for food. Their leafage will not wither, nor will their fruitage be consumed. (Rev22:1-3).

  Thus Satan, the Heb2:14 death spirit at the top of all earthly creation as it's super-natural temporary king, will be replaced by King Christ the "life giving spirit", and that will affect all life on earth completely in the opposite force which life is, contrary to death, Satan's main now illusion that he inherits forever instead as the real thing.

  (1 Corinthians 15:25-26) For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.

  (Hebrews 2:14-16) Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly partook of the same things, that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil; 15 and [that] he might emancipate all those who for fear of death were subject to slavery all through their lives. 16 For he is really not assisting angels at all, but he is assisting Abraham’s seed.
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  EdenOne

  interesting point anonymous.

  "out of" the 12 tribes, and not the 12 tribes in itself.

  Eden
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  justmom

  Matthew 19:28: " And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (NASB)

  The context shows that Jesus was talking to his twelve apostles. if they were to "sit in thrones" and judge the twelve tribes of Israel, where does that leave the apostle Paul?

  Eden

  Good morning Eden,

  Paul falls under Revelation 5:9,10 along with a great crowd to be priests.

  The twelve that sit on thrones to judge " the 12 tribes" is literal Israel. They are all saved as Romans 11: 25-32 brings out but they lost out on the priesthood because of the rejettison of CHRIST.
• 

  pacloc

  From Haydock commentary:

  In the regeneration. Jesus Christ here calls the general resurrection the regeneration, because there will then be a renovation of the human body, and of the whole world. The promise which is here made to the apostles of sitting on thrones at the general judgment, and passing sentence on the 12 tribes of Israel, must not be understood as limited to the apostles, or to the Jews. For S. Paul says, (1 Cor. vi. 2. and 3,) that not only he, but also many of the Corinthians to whom he was writing, would judge not merely the 12 tribes, but the whole world, and moreover angels themselves. It is the opinion of many of the Fathers, S. Jerom, S. Austin, S. Gregory, and others, that all apostolical men, i.e. such as, renouncing the goods of this life, adhere to Christ in mind and affection, and by every possible means promote his reign and the propagation of his gospel, will be so far honoured as to sit in judgment with him at the general resurrection. T. — You also shall sit on twelve seats, or thrones, meaning at the general resurrection, when Christ will appear on the throne of his majesty, with his heavenly court, and with his elect, shall condemn the wicked world.

  So you can say that Jesus incarnation, death, and resurrection changed the world into all potential sons of God (Israel), but only the elect (12 apostles) will be chosen and will in a sense judge the rest of the wicked that gave up their inheritance.
• 

  anonymouz

  EdenOne

  "out of" the 12 tribes, and not the 12 tribes in itself.

  =

  Yes and a pattern of order is also now mirroring in that recognition of the Rev7 "12 tribes" and the earthly "12 tribes" of Matt19:28, as they too must end up with "patriarchical" heads as a symbol of an earthly administration that mirrors the heavenly guide Kingdom.

  (Psalm 45:16) In place of your forefathers there will come to be your sons, Whom you will appoint as princes in all the earth.

  The Revelation 12 seven headed dragon has a current top ruling administration (Eph6:12), that also is mirrored into the seven headed classic wildbeast and the scarlet globalized version. So the principle is common.
  
  Now the top "Kingdom of God" "crown" in that Rev12 "woman" also has a "twelve star" angelic order in that "crown" as Christ's Rev12:7-10 heavenly Kingship authority, on a "woman" symbol of his subservience with all the holy angels to God's overall Supremacy. And that 12 "star" order "crown" headed "woman" is thus crowned prior to her giving birth to the "male child" Messianic Kingdom infant.
  
  Thus Christ (Rev12:10) as Michael identification of his exclusively heavenly aspect of power in that event as "standing up" in Daniel 12:1 (initial fulfillment), a term of kings taking power in Daniel, in a heavenly kingdom oversight, to produce a universal and earthly exclusive Messianic Kingdom sovereignty not yet fully complete, and thus Christ is not the official Messianic Kingdom King yet, but the a Kingdom of God heavenly anointed King.
  
  But as Daniel 11:42-45 are 8th King UN events leading to a full "scarlet wildbeast" world government at Dan11:45, and must connect live to Daniel 12 "during that time", Daniel 12:1 has a replication final fulfillment logical of that stand in now Rev12:10 principle of "God's Christ" as Messianic King of universal and earthly dominion "during that time" of Daniel 11:44-45.

  Just kind of interesting a Daniel 12:11 "disgusting thing" finale UN placement (parallel Dan11:45) would also replicate at that time. Thus the 8th King and Messianic Kingdom will converge into completion and resolution of sovereignty at roughly the same time in history a number of years from now as indicated in Dan 12 time periods. As Matt24:29-31 tribulation ending (into world recovery, not the end yet), and subsequent events mark the "freedom from care" of Daniel 8:25 8th King "stand" parallel to Dan11:45 and Dan12:11 as that 8th King globalized world government representing all nations of earth as Daniel 11:42-45 events accelerate Rev17:12-18 national sovereign deposition into globalized world power as Rev16:13-16 "gathering" completed.
  
  Thus the Daniel 11:42-43 initial globalization of world wealth, credit system, and finance and monetary system phase precedes the final Daniel 11:44-45 world government progression, and the sovereign world "peace and security" statements of that world government (1Thess5:1-3) as a sign of "freedom from care" (Dan8:25) at the same time of that climax progression to Daniel 12:11 "placement". (And thus too, all that Dan2, Dan8, and Dan 11, symbology all globalizes into 8th King final meaning of Rev17:8-18 - which connection and convergence Bethel will not make.).
  
  Thus for all intents and purposes as this UN world government completes over say a decade time from final cycle activation, the progress of it's completion is a marked progression to actual Armageddon and Messianic Kingdom completion and final Christ coronation as King-Priest. (Zech4:6-9; 6:9-15). And thus the replicating Dan 12:1 "stand", but in Messianic Kingdom Kingship.
  
  And contrary to the lawless Bethel (2Thess:2:3-4; Zech3:1-3) claims it is NOT a slam dunk "end of the world", but must also honor Daniel 12's timed periods again in this final Messianic Kingdom process. Which is also an 8th King completion process. In effect, Bethel is aiding the confusions for the START of the final 8th King globalization cycle, it is not at it's end obviously, and must complete prior to any "Armageddon", as also the Rev7, 14 Messianic Kingdom "body" is ALSO not complete as well. And the 8th King completion of globalization itself, takes years to accomplish. (ALL those culminations MUST complete prior to actual Armageddon war phase, thus it cannot be as Bethel's subversion is stating).
  
  And since it is all provable in many cross checking ways upon early JW prophecy teachings and a final prophecy cycle and all the prophets basically as well, and will be reinforced by marked world events long before the actual "the end" of Matt24:14, it is obvious this overall news must come out in that final cycle active, after Bethel's downfall to be removed to allow this information to come forth. (In basic terms Daniel 12 replicates under Rev8-11 also repeating, and Bethel's desolation start-point, will mark that cycle start-point as well)
  
  As we know Bethel also covers up the 8th King 3rd and 4th UN placement progression of Daniel 11:30-45. And they went UN NGO at that time as well. Thus JWs are only aware of the significance of the first 2 UN placement of 1919 and 1945, also prophetically marked. And in that cover up much information is now severed from JW awareness and world audience awareness, as well as the final meaning of a logical progression to 8th King world government actuality, not just the UN forum, but including it.
  
  And once we see Bethel's top admin are the lawlessness and apostasy of 2Thess2:3-4 at Daniel 11:32-35 periods of development that spiked as UN NGO of 1990 (and this diversion using USSR and WW2 error), then the reality they are concealing is more easily put together. Globalization research also aids awareness the end cannot be as simplistic as Bethel is promoting aiding the overall JW delusion and that of JW audience.
  
  The Daniel 11:42-43 financial globalization process will cause and require a global economic tribulation, but it is engineered to aid a new 8th King overall finance system over some time. That alone will take some time, and is plainly evident as already set-up in massive worldwide national terminal debt scenarios. And that is when what is already a Bethel coup, can go coup-de-grace to attempt to fully remove the ministerial means to make the final cycle known by Bethel financial and organizational desolations. (The mechanism of that went into installation with the 1976 GB initial coup, and is set up for that ultimate objective now fully ready for the final part of the operation).
  
  So what is coming is NOT "the end" (except for Bethel), but the BEGINNING of the final 8th King cycle and prophecy cycle that will take a decade to fully unwind to also Messianic Kingdom completing events and meanings for real. (Dan12 and Rev8-11 also parallel Rev16 activation in final fulfillment). It is plainly obvious now Bethel's stagnation must be purposeful and 8th King related developments. (The real Dan8:11-14 parallel Dan11:30-32a Bethel and 8th King developments and collusions, 1990 peak manifestation as UN NGO (and diversion/subversion) and continuance to Dan8:13 divine mandate for Bethel desolation for UN NGO "transgression causing desolation".)
  
  Thus even now, in another way, it is all still related and connected, there are no "loose ends" in reality of Bethel engineered defection and subversion, it is just made to appear as such to aid the final cycle activation as long as they can prior to exit and Bethel implosions worldwide. (Dan8:14 timing). They are setting up a required desolation of Dan8:13-14 to be sold to JWs as a premature Dan11:44-45 activation, out of sync with prophecy and the final globalization process which will just be beginning. And thus JWs can be shut up by confusion, bewilderment and scattering in the initial couple years of that cycle start, and Bethel implosions; (Dan8:13 initial "trampling", in time purified and leading to Rev11:7 replication final "trampling" of Rev11:2 "holt city", as Rev11:7 at Dan11:44 actual timing).