2 SURVEY QUESTIONS

by Terry 53 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  tec

  If there were no Holy Book in existence--what would you or anybody else KNOW about God and how would you know it?

  Those of faith would know about God according to what they hear from Him and from the Spirit (Christ), same as they did to begin with before there WAS a 'holy book'. Those people would share what they hear, and others might also come to listen and so hear, and believe. Still others would corrupt the message and truth, and mislead many.

  Same as what happened from the beginning, in truth.

  If whatever Holy Book(s) turned out to be unreliable for any reason (or at least hit-and-miss) would that be any different from being totally wrong?

  (Example: You have a list of important things that will hurt you, help you and waste your time--but--they aren't categorized which is which!)

  That is what we DO have... though being errant does not make something useless or totally wrong.

  You can learn what is what by experience... and testing. Just means that you think and reason and test what a witness WROTE (or a witness to that witness wrote, or a scribe later wrote/translated)... same as you would test something that a witness SPOKE.

  Peace,

  tammy
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  Theredeemer

  Case in point Tec. You said "You can learn what is what by experience... and testing." You can only learn from experiencing things first hand and testing things yourself. You cannot possibly test or experience things another person wrote unless you go and experience the exact same thing. You can, maybe, learn from someone elses experience, but usually you learn best from experienceing the event yourself; hence why so many make the same mistakes as others.

  For example, I cant possibly say "Dr. Pepper is the best soft drink!" just because they said it in a commercial. I can say it is because I've tasted it. This still doesnt prove that it is the best. Even if they did a survey, the same population who took the survey could never represnt 7 billion people.

  What you have experienced from reading the bible, having God "speak" to you or any religious experience can never prove the validity that God, or at least "your God", exists or is the best. Your experiences only can prove one thing, if anything, God really only cares about TEC! But frankly, your experiences prove nothing to me, and neither does some strewn together accounts written thousands of years ago, whether they be actual first hand accounts or not.

  Thus, the bible's usefullness, which is in very small areas, does not make it necessary to posses nor excuse the glaring errors it contains. In that case, Harry Potter, should be considered worthy of Biblical respect because it promotes acceptance and promotes children to gain confidence.

  Right now, where there is a camera in everyones pocket, storage devices that can save millions of bits of information and where everyone keepsa public diary, is a perfect time for god to show himself with miracles and proof of his existance. But so far...nothing. Right now we can actually keep detailed accounts of his power and wisdom. He can speak to anyone and ask them to type it out and save it so the origanl transcriber can have a hard copy so no one can ever change it and....nothing. Miracles can be recorded, uploaded to you tube and he could choose a prophet that can reach billions in less than a second with video evidence and....nothing.

  Sounds like God picked the wrong time to disappear.
• 

  tec

  Case in point Tec. You said "You can learn what is what by experience... and testing." You can only learn from experiencing things first hand and testing things yourself. You cannot possibly test or experience things another person wrote unless you go and experience the exact same thing. You can, maybe, learn from someone elses experience, but usually you learn best from experienceing the event yourself; hence why so many make the same mistakes as others.

  I think that is MY case and point, lol.

  You CAN learn and experience for yourself. Christ, who IS the Spirit... is not limited to the flesh; meaning He can reach anyone/everyone who is willing to hear and put their faith in Him.

  Peace,

  tammy
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  Theredeemer

  I said :"For example, if a manual to build a tv stand has quite a few misprints, it is still useful to keep it because you can figure out the kinks on your own. Although its unreliable to put your complete faith in the manual, you can still find it usefull if there is nothing else provided to help you out.

  And its for that reason that many hold onto the bible despite its unreliableness, simply because they feel its still usefull and there is nothing else to build thier faith upon."

  You said:

  "That is what we DO have... though being errant does not make something useless or totally wrong." That is my case in point with how people view the bible. You excuse the glaring errors it contains that you normally would not make for any other book like say, oh , the Quran.

  The fact is, your God did a crappy job preserving the bible. He made sure that after only a few decades the only accounts of these events in existence are copies of copies of copies which will be verifiably altered and added to in historically and theologically significant ways from generation to generation, sect to sect. He did not preserve the original copies of these accounts, he did not protect them from revision, did not set in place any mechanism of protecting them from being interpreted in hundreds upon hundreds of ways most of which being heretical and therefore punishable.

  But that was his plan right Tammy? To be really confusing? What is even worse is that, when all is said and done, you demand that he be praised for his rediculous plan.

  Is he the god of the bible? Is he perfect and if so, shouldn’t his word be perfect? But you do not care that there are contradictions, historical inaccuracies and anachronisms in the bible so debating is futile.
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  Theredeemer

  As for experiencing Christ,

  It is quite hard to argue with personal experiences because they are personal. Tammy experienced Tammy's experience. That was what I was trying to say earlier.
  I never ever had any experiences of a presence of God, and that is certainly important in my conviction that there is no personal God; I mean if I had such experiences my opinion about that would clearly be different. It really depends on what these experiences are. I do not think one can make a general statement about all these experiences because they are often quite different.

  The problem I find with the religious/Christ experience interpretation of these personal experiences is that they rely on pure presumption. What we can take from them without such presumption is that people can have such experiences while, at the same time, not presuming they’re anything other than an entirely natural event with a scientific explanation . We see them reported across cultures and religions, which poses some difficult questions for the Christian. But the bottom line is that leaping to a spiritual/ Christ experience explanation, without even addressing the unsupernatural possibilities, is, again, pure presumption. Researching other religions should offer a good deal of insight on this phenomenon. It’s certainly nothing new, and it’s certainly not exclusive to Christians.
• 

  braincleaned

  QUESTION #1:

  If there were no Holy Book in existence--what would you or anybody else KNOW about God and how would you know it?
  If we had a decent scientific understanding at the time, we would know nothing of him — It's like if cars were invented today — gas would not even be an option.
  No fear of the unknown = No gods.

  QUESTION #2:

  If whatever Holy Book(s) turned out to be unreliable for any reason (or at least hit-and-miss) would that be any different from being totally wrong?
  No. This is why I encourage the believers to get surgery from a surgeon that operates with the Biblical knowledge of 2,000 years ago. After all, they trust their lives with the book.
• 

  Theredeemer

  Many say, "Well, maybe you have experienced Christ but you ignored it was him; or You failed to see it was Christ." Which, if you want, fine lets pretend that actually happened.

  But lets take this as an example,

  My wife and I tried for a baby through invitro. It was one of the most trying, stressfull and difficult time in our lives. It was painful, it was very very expensive and sadly, ultimately it did not work.

  However, we made it through. We were united, we grew closer and we learned how strong as a couple we are. We are determined to keep trying.

  Everyone else, our friends, family and coworkers promised us prayers and phrases like "God's will come through" "he will give you a baby".

  Not once did we pray. Not once did we ask God for help to overcome all that was happenning. When it didnt work and we we so sad, we picked ourselves up and moved forward.

  This is my point about experiences and self love.

  Would it be healthier to attribute our endurance and preserverance to my wife and I, our strength as a couple, our love and devotion to one another or God, who didnt even answer everyone elses prayers to grant us a baby?

  Thats why I said: "The sad thing is with the example of the manual, how many times have we put something together WITHOUT USING THE MANUAL? In my case, all the time. Although I've had to go back and redo it or take it apart again to fix an error I've made, I take a certain pride in not using the help provided. And how many times have we looked at the manual or instructions and truly thought it was a magical code in a different language?

  The same can be said about the bible, although many find it usefull, in the end, if they would just open thier eyes and reflect on thier lives, they would see that it was THEM who ultimately put their lives together, for good or for bad. I truly believe that people would have so much more confidence and love for themselves if they stop giving credit to an imaginary being or a Holy Book and give credit to themselves, like when you put together a TV stand!"
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  Terry

  If a holy book were the answer to everything what would the question be?
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  Theredeemer

  What kind of books do most people put their entire faith, obedience and trust upon, although they are filled with lies, contradictions, mysogenistic teachings, rascism, historical inaccuracies and unscientific explanations?
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  LucidChimp

  2 tim 3 v 16

  That's what did it for me. Either that is true, or ANY scripture could be false.

  Then I discovered a contradiction in the bible and down the rabbithole I fell.

  (After deciding I didn't believe the bible was the word of god, I noticed I had no actual basis for a believing IN a god [who may or may not go around dictating books to folks])