NOT on JW.ORG: Why 1914, 1919, and 607 do not matter.

by Balaamsass 16 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Balaamsass
    Balaamsass

    http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/gobekli-tepe/mann-text/1 National Geographic show tonight. Click on link for National Geographic Videos and articles on Mankinds OLDEST temples...much older than Watchtowers date for a flood and Adams creation. Why argue about a few years when WTBTS chronology is off by thousands?

    Göbekli Tepe

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    Göbekli Tepe
    Locationnear Sanliurfa
    RegionSoutheastern Anatolia Region, Turkey
    Coordinates 37°13′24″N 38°55′21″E ? / ? 37.2233°N 38.9224°E ? / 37.2233; 38.9224 Coordinates: 37°13′24″N 38°55′21″E ? / ? 37.2233°N 38.9224°E ? / 37.2233; 38.9224
    TypeTemple
    History
    Periodspre-pottery Neolithic A–B
    Site notes
    Conditionwell preserved
    Websitereferences: [1] Megalithic Portal

    Göbekli Tepe Turkish: [gøbe?kli te?p?] [2] ("Potbelly Hill" [3] ) is a Neolithic hilltop sanctuary erected at the top of a mountain ridge in the Southeastern Anatolia Region of Turkey, some 15 kilometers (9 mi) northeast of the town of Sanliurfa (formerly Urfa / Edessa). It is the oldest known human-made religious structure. [1] [4] The site was most likely erected by hunter-gatherers in the 10th millennium BCE and has been under excavation since 1994 by German and Turkish archaeologists. [5] Together with Nevali Çori , it has revolutionized understanding of the Eurasian Neolithic. [6]

    Contents

    [ hide ]
    • 1 Discovery
    • 2 The complex
    • 3 Dating
    • 4 Architecture
    • 5 Economy
    • 6 Chronological context
    • 7 Interpretation and importance
    • 8 Conservation
    • 9 See also
    • 10 Notes
    • 11 References
    • 12 External links

    [ edit ] Discovery

    Göbekli Tepe is located in southeastern Turkey. It was first noted in a survey conducted by Istanbul University and the University of Chicago in 1964, which recognized that the hill could not entirely be a natural feature and postulated that a Byzantine cemetery lay beneath. The survey noted a large number of flints and the presence of limestone slabs thought to be Byzantine grave markers. This work was first mentioned in print in Peter Benedict's article "Survey Work in Southeastern Anatolia" (1980). In 1994, archaeologist Klaus Schmidt of the German Archaeological Institute of Istanbul noted Benedict's article and visited the site, recognizing that it was in fact a much older Neolithic site. Since 1995 [7] excavations have been conducted by the German Archaeological Institute of Istanbul and the Sanliurfa Museum, under the direction of Schmidt (University of Heidelberg 1995–2000, German Archaeological Institute 2001–present). The hill had been under agricultural cultivation before being excavated. Generations of local inhabitants had frequently moved rocks and placed them in clearance piles and much archaeological evidence may have been destroyed in the process. Scholars from the Hochschule Karlsruhe began documenting the architectural remains and soon discovered T-shaped pillars facing south-east. Some of these pillars had apparently undergone attempts at destruction, probably by farmers who mistook them for ordinary large rocks. [8]

    [ edit ] The complex

    Göbekli Tepe is the world's oldest known religious structure. [4] The site, located on a hilltop, contains 20 round structures which had been buried, four of which have been excavated. Each round structure has a diameter of between 10 and 30 meters (30 and 100 ft) and all are decorated with massive, mostly T-shaped, limestone pillars that are the most striking feature of the site. The limestone slabs were quarried from bedrock pits located around 100 meters (330 ft) from the hilltop, with neolithic workers using flint points to carve the bedrock. [9] The majority of flint tools found at the site are Byblos and Nemrik points. That neolithic people with such primitive flint tools quarried, carved, transported uphill, and erected these massive pillars has astonished the archaeological world, and must have required a staggering amount of labor. [10]

    Two pillars are at the center of each circle, possibly intended to help support a roof, and up to eight pillars are evenly positioned around the walls of the room. The spaces between the pillars are lined with unworked stone and there are stone benches between each set of pillars around the edges of the wall. [11]

    Many of the pillars are decorated with carvedreliefs of animals and of abstract enigmatic pictograms. The pictograms may represent commonly understood sacred symbols, as known from Neolithiccave paintings elsewhere. The reliefs depict lions, bulls, boars, foxes, gazelles, donkeys, snakes and other reptiles, insects, arachnids, and birds, particularly vultures. (At the time the shrine was constructed, the surrounding country was much lusher and capable of sustaining this variety of wildlife, before millennia of settlement and cultivation resulted in the near–Dust Bowl conditions prevailing today.) [8] Vultures also feature prominently in the iconography of the Neolithic sites of Çatalhöyük and Jericho; it is believed that in the early Neolithic culture of Anatolia and the Near East the deceased were deliberately exposed in order to be excarnated by vultures and other carrion birds. (The head of the deceased was sometimes removed and preserved—possibly a sign of ancestor worship.) [12] This, then, would represent an early form of sky burial, as practiced today by Tibetan Buddhists and by Zoroastrians in India. [13]

    Few humanoid figures have surfaced at Göbekli Tepe, but they include the engraving of a naked woman posed frontally in a crouched position that Schmidt likens to the Venus accueillante figures found in Neolithic north Africa, and a decapitated corpse surrounded by vultures in bas-relief. Some of the T-shaped pillars picture human arms, which indicate that they represent the bodies of stylized humans (or anthropomorphic gods). The wider stone member atop the T-shaped pillars is thought to symbolize the head; thus the pillars as a whole have an anthropomorphic identity. [14] One example is decorated with human hands in what could be interpreted as a prayer gesture, with a simple stole or surplice engraved above; this may be intended to signify a temple priest. [15]

    Until excavations began, a complex on this scale was not thought possible for a community so ancient, and with such primitive quarrying tools. The massive sequence of stratification layers suggests several millennia of activity, perhaps reaching back to the Mesolithic. The oldest occupation layer (Layer III) contains monolithic pillars linked by coarsely built walls to form circular or oval structures. Four such buildings have been uncovered, with diameters between 10–30 meters (33–98 ft). Geophysical surveys indicate the existence of 16 additional structures.

    Layer II, dated to Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB) (7500–6000 BCE), has revealed several adjacent rectangular rooms with floors of polished lime, reminiscent of Romanterrazzo floors. The most recent layer consists of sediment deposited as the result of agricultural activity.

    [ edit ] Dating

    The PPN A settlement has been dated to c. 9000 BCE. There are remains of smaller houses from the PPN B and a few epipalaeolithic finds as well.

    There are a number of radiocarbon dates (presented with one standard deviationerrors and calibrations to BCE):

    Lab-NumberDate BPCal BCEContext
    Ua-195618430 ± 807560–7370enclosure C
    Ua-195628960 ± 858280–7970enclosure B
    Hd-200259452 ± 739110–8620Layer III
    Hd-200369559 ± 539130–8800Layer III

    The Hd samples are from charcoal in the lowest levels of the site and would date the active phase of occupation. The Ua samples come from pedogeniccarbonate coatings on pillars and only indicate a time after the site was abandoned—the terminus ante quem. [16]

    [ edit ] Architecture

    The structures are round megalithic buildings. The walls are made of unworked dry stone and include numerous T-shaped monolithic pillars of limestone that are up to 3 meters (10 ft) high. Another, bigger pair of pillars is placed in the centre of the structures. There is evidence that the structures were roofed; the central pair of pillars may have supported the roof. Some of the floors are made of terrazzo (burnt lime), others are bedrock from which pedestals for the large pair of central pillars were carefully carved in high relief. [17]

    The reliefs on the pillars include foxes, lions, cattle, hyenas, wild boar, wild asses, cranes, ducks, scorpions, ants, spiders, many snakes, and a small number of anthropomorphic figures. Some of the reliefs have been deliberately erased, maybe in preparation for new designs. There are freestanding sculptures as well that may represent wild boars or foxes. As they are heavily encrusted with lime, it is sometimes difficult to tell. Comparable statues have been discovered at Nevali Çori and Nahal Hemar.

    Monolith with bull, fox, and crane in low relief

    The quarries for the statues are located on the plateau itself; some unfinished pillars have been found there in situ. The biggest unfinished pillar is still 6.9 meters (22.6 ft) long; a length of 9 meters (30 ft) has been reconstructed. This is much larger than any of the finished pillars found so far. The stone was quarried with stone picks. [citation needed] Bowl-like depressions in the limestone rocks may already have served as mortars or fire-starting bowls in the epipalaeolithic. There are some phalloi and geometric patterns cut into the rock as well; their dating is uncertain.

    Creation of the circular enclosures in layer III later gave way to the construction of small rectangular rooms in layer II. But the T-shaped pillars, the main feature of the older enclosures, survived, indicating that the buildings of Layer II likewise served as sanctuaries. [18] Schmidt believes this "cathedral on a hill" was a pilgrimage destination attracting worshipers up to a 100 miles (160 km) distant. Butchered bones found in large numbers from local game such as deer, gazelle, pigs, and geese have been identified as refuse derived from hunting and food prepared for the congregants. [19]

    The site was deliberately backfilled sometime after 8000 BCE: the buildings are covered with debris, mostly flint gravel, stone tools and animal bones that must have been brought from elsewhere. [20] The lithic inventory is characterised by Byblos points and numerous Nemrik-points. There are Helwan-points and Aswad-points as well.

  • MrFreeze
    MrFreeze

    JW's will just say "their dating methods are obviously flawed." I've realized how pointless using secular sources is with a JW. Their hiearchy of truth goes: Publications > Bible > Secular history

  • DesirousOfChange
    DesirousOfChange

    JW's will just say "their dating methods are obviously flawed."

    Exactly. Everyone knows that radiocarbon dating is not accurate for anything that existed prior to the flood as the "watery expanse" prevented the same rate of deterioration.

    How you can you trust scientists? They believe in evolution.

    Doc

  • smiddy
    smiddy

    Jehovah`s Witnesses rejecting such well founded research and documentation just reinforces the level or standard of education they have.

    Ignorance is bliss so they say .

    smiddy

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    ROFL!!!

    Evolution-believing archaeologists often come up with dates far into the past. But the only way to critically date anything is using radiocarbon-14 dating, and that is not accurate past about 1500 BCE and half-lifes won't go back much farther than 50,000 years!

    Here's a quote: "Samples older than the upper age-limit cannot be dated because the small number of remaining intrinsic 14 C atoms will be obscured by the 14 C background atoms introduced into the samples while they still resided in the environment, during sample preparation, or in the detection instrument. As of 2007, the limiting age for a 1 milligram sample of graphite is about ten half-lives, approximately 60,000 years. [ 12 ] This age is derived from that of the calibration blanks used in an analysis, whose 14 C content is assumed to be the result of contamination during processing (as a result of this, some facilities [ 12 ] will not report an age greater than 60,000 years for any sample)." (From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating)

    So, those really early dates cannot be verified and are based on the speculation that man or ape-men were around for millions of years prior to "written history."

    My "reality check" in a lot of these claims is "written history." Written history, for the most part, aligns with the Biblical timeline.

    But we also have to deal with academic dishonesty. There are more recent, confirmable dating from archaeology and C14 dating that point to the Exodus as occurring in 1386 BCE, but no popular archaeologists are focussing on that date, since it links the Exodus with Akhenaten who otherwise mysteriously became a monotheist! Of course, that seems like the 10 plagues is what caused his conversion to monotheism. So some of this misinformation is just considered anti-Biblical propaganda. If archaeologists are not capable of or unwilling to correct the more recent, "historical" timeline, then why can they be trusted with unsubstantiated earlier dates?

    But this is what the Bible prophesied. That Satan would produce enough propaganda that would othewise drown the elect, unless they had something more direct and factual to still believe, That turns out to be God himself appearing to some of the elect, along with Christ. Christ appeared to me once before I was combined with him. So let's say its a challenge or a question that the Bible's timeline is incorrect or misinterpreted and that these earlier civilizations not related to Adam and Eve existed. It would have no effect on someone like myself who has direct proof of God since I have seen him personally and talked with him. It invalidates that propaganda when it is used to try to challenge the existence of God.

    So it seems God did consider it necessary to directly appear to some so that they wouldn't have to doubt he exists or the bible is true, and propaganda like this is allowed to fool others, but not the elect. They have more direct proof the bible is true, so Satan's river of propaganda is ineffective and is swollowed up. There is no way a scientist can effectively prove any dates with absolute accuracy via C14 earlier than about 1500-1600 BCE. Anyone can speculate on anything, cave men, ape-men, all that evolution stupidity and then come up with some date earlier than the flood, but they can't substantiate it scientifically.

    Fod allows the world to be deceived, he hides from the world, but provides evidence through holy spirit or by appearing to some "prophets" more directly that he definitely exists, so we don't have to dismiss or challenge any of this in regards to whether God is real or not. If God has appeared to you personally, it nullifies all that and you can go on to other things and focus on spiritual things without blinking.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Oops! Something is wrong. This gives the C14 datings as BP, which is before present. BCE dates are now about 2000 years later than BP C14 dating calibrations. Yet you find this:

    "Ua-195618430 ± 807560–7370enclosure C

    They are saying that a BP C14 dating of 8430 is equivalent to 7560 BCE. 7560 is only 870 years later! When you convoert BP, which is before present to BCE, you need to subtract the present dating, which is 2012. If you subtract 2000 years from 8430 you get 6430 BCE. So something is wrong here!

    Now the WTS dates the creation of Adam to 6024, which is actually 127 years too early, but since we are rounding off by 100 years or so anyway, let just use that date of 4000 BCE for man, and allow for these images to have been built in a city by Cain, which would have been an early city, say 200 years or so into the history of mankind, say 3400 BCE. That means the 6400 BCE dating from this site is some 3000 years inflated. Since we know that the distortion of C14 dating begins to expoteniate as early at 1500 BCE, that is about 3500 BP. So it would seem that within 1500 years the C14 has doubled itself; that is, it shows dates twice as old as they really are, which means we can just cut that dating in half.

    So if 8430 BP converted to BCE is 6430 BCE and we cut that in half, we are looking at 3230 BCE? If we date the creation of Adam to 4026 BCE and subtract 127 years we get 3899 BCE for the creation of Adam. Subtract 3230 years from 3899 and we are looking at 699 years after the creation of Adam. Works for me!!!!

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    B.P dates are not before 2012 Lars. They are before, from memory, 1952 ? i don't have time to lookit up. Also Carbon dating does have an error built in, but that is only in the last 2% of the date . so is small, carbon and other radimetric dating are fine for dating up to 45, 000 years ago and beyond with oinly asmall margin of "error" being possible, say around 100years at a 45, 000 years estimate.(again all this is from memory so may not be spot on)

    Someone with more expertise than I will no doubt explain it all better, but suffice to say, I do not think the experts i the field are far out with their dates for Gobekli Tepe.

    Which, as the thread Title posits, puts all debate about Biblical dates where they belong, in the Fiction Section.

  • Balaamsass
    Balaamsass

    Yes Phizzy the carbon dating may be a bit off but we are taking about THOUSANDS OF YEARS. WTBTS chronology is WAY OFF. Who cares about 20 years give or take?

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    *marked*

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Hi Phizzy. C14 dating starts to become unreliable at about 1500 BCE when the C14 dates start to diverge from established dendrochroonlogy.

    But also, there are the fundamentals. Lots of discussion about how the flood would affect things, plus the pre-flood atmosphere.

    The WTS was to serve as God's "temple" from 1886-1996, so 1874 and 1914 are good dates for some things.

    1874 is when Christ's parousia could be said to have officially begun and it marks off a generation of 120 years from 1874-1994. Daniel 12:1 speaks of when "Michael stands up" which is the beginning of Christ's parousia.

    1914 is a date the WTS has 1 out of 3 correct. The "last generation" begins with a world war and so 1914 begins the generation of 1914-1994 which would see the events leading up to the second coming. So that's still a good date for dating that generation. Christ arrived in late 1992, so that works. But it is NOT the "end of the gentile times" which occurred on November 30, 1947, and it is NOT the date of the 2nd coming. The true date for the fall of Jerusalem, whether you use the Bible's dating or dating derived from astronomical texts like the VAT4956 and the SK400, both of which date the rule of Nebuchadnezzar II as beginning in 547 BCE, the 19th year would fall in 529 BCE, dating the 2nd coming 2520 years later to 1992. The WTS has the right interpretastion of the 2520 years, but they trusted secular chronology for the date for the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE, but that date along with many others they themselves reject was revised.

    But now that we can correct the timeline, we also have "science" in place to compare that to. This is a simple academic process which those who don't like the Bible hate! Let's do a quick example. The date of the Exodus.

    JWs date the Exodus to 1513 BCE based on whatever, their own calculations. Fine. Some date the Exodus for their own reasons during the reign of Rameses II, c. 1213 BCE. If you use 1947 to date the 70th jubilee, the Exodus occurs in 1386 BCE. So we have three dates to compare with what dating "science" is giving us. We are comparing 1213 BCE, 1386 BCE and 1513 BCE.

    A good comparison is when Jericho fell as dated by archaeologists. Kathleen Kenyon dates the fall by Joshua to between 1350-1325 BCE. Here is her quote:

    Kathleen Kenyon: Digging Up Jericho, Jericho and the Coming of the
    Israelites, page 262:

    "As concerns the date of the destruction of Jericho by the Israelites, all
    that can be said is that the latest Bronze Age occupation should, in my
    view, be dated to the third quarter of the fourteenth century B.C. This is a
    date which suits neither the school of scholars which would date the entry
    of the Israelites into Palestine to c. 1400 B.C. nor the school which
    prefers a date of c. 1260 B.C."

    To compare, we just add 40 years to those dates which give us an Exodus date of 1390-1365 BCE. That would be the "archaeological" date for when the Exodus should have happened. This is way too early for Rameses II in 1213 BCE. And it is far too late for the WTS' date of 1513 BCE. But if you use the Biblical jubilee dating based on 1947, the 1386 BCE date falls within the archaeological range of dates! So draw your own conclusions.

    What this does is establish a level of credibility for the Biblical timeline, from which every major historical event can now be dated based on 1947 now. So the chronology is still important and relevant.

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