Another visit from the elders (page 3)

undercover

Don't waste your time with those numbnut elders. The only thing they know is what they're told to know. They don't think. They don't reason. They react...and they react as the WTS has taught them to. They will not be able to fill in the blanks on how doctrine has changed. In their mind, it has never changed. Any challenge to them will be ignored. They're not there to listen to you...they're there to either straigten you out, convert you or convince you to allow them to train your children in their cult religion.

If you are not a JW, if you're an unbelieving mate, just tell them it's none of their business regarding what you will or will not allow our children to do. As an unbeliever, you don't accept their theology, nor their authority over your household.

If you're a fader, well, you're going to have to tread more lightly, if you're trying to stay faded. Though if they're wanting your permission for the kids to attend, I'm guessing that you're not a baptized JW.

Even if you choose to spar with them over WT doctrine, do yourself a long term favor and do not give anyone explicit permission to push the WT religion on your children. Even if you allow them to attend certain meetings here and there, make sure they attend other services elsewhere, for comparison's sake. Give them room to grow and experiment on their own path of spirituality.

J. Hofer

i'll say it again: don't meet with them.

but in case you don't listen to us, there was some sound advice given already too: record it and don't expect them to answer your question. they will ask you the fundamental questions instead: do you think this is god's organization. if you say no, you're toast. if you say yes, you're toast as well, as they'll give you the guilt trip on what you're supposed to do (going to the meetings, taking spiritual responsibility for your household, all thos sweet things), until you'll eventually say no due to being fed up with all this.

in case you don't listen to us and you're confronted with those questions and your goal is not to be disfellowshipped, don't answer those questions. i repeat: don't answer them. if that's too awkward for you (it's as awkward for the elders as for you, so no worries), respond with "that's a personal question".

that's just in case you're one of those people who just don't want to listen ;) again: don't meed with them!

DATA-DOG

Part of me understands your need to ask them questions. I did something similar thinking that my Elder " friends " would see the scriptural light. That did not happen. It cannot happen under the existing system. Even if every Elder in your congregation agreed with you in thier heart it would not matter. They would all be removed by the CO. Plus we know that scenario could never happen anyway.

Still if you feel that you must stand up for what is right, then that is something you must do. What is your apostolic succession theory?

sd-7

Am I missing something here ? Witnesses now have to believe in apostolic sucession, ? How could I have missed this .!

Can someone please explain this to me .? ( I am having trouble keeping up with this nu-lite )

Ah. I had to think about this for a moment. Jonno's got a point there. In order for the slave to have been appointed in 1919, there has to be a form of succession, as Rutherford & gang would die off, and a new group would need to become the 'slave class'. Hence, it would be a sort of modified form of apostolic succession, with the HQ anointed playing the role similar to the 'apostles and older men' of the first century. Again, none of this matters to a JW true believer, but it's fascinating to watch.

Also, what you say to the elders really all depends on what your agenda is. If you plan to throw all political considerations aside, then you have to play their game. If not, then drop some knowledge on them, Star Destroyer style...

--sd-7

konceptual99

Just playing devils advocate but is it really apostolic succession? They are not claiming succession from the apostles as the apostles were not the F&DS. Of course there is a form of succession between members as they leave and join the GB but is that strictly apostolic succession?

j dubb

If you want to really push the boat out, ask if the distancing from Russell is simply embarrassment of info now easily available online, first hand proof of his beliefs in pyramidology, the selling of expensive miracle wheat from the WT resulting in papers calling him a conman (the paper won a court battle after he attempted to sue), the divorce to his wife or the embarassing comparisson of him being a jellyfish in that he flirted from woman to woman, including his under age maid, hence his wife filed for divorce. Hardly a faithful, discreet, slave.

Sweet! nicely put. CTR was neither faithful nor discreet. Discuss. :)

1- The supernatural exists
2- The god of the bible exists
3- The god of the bible communicates with the governing body of Jehovahs Witnesses

No religious body/official in existence can get past the first one. If it could be proven, it would be known by every human on earth and fully integrated into every governmental system. All war would be outright religious in nature and we would probably have wiped ourselves out already.

If the first could be proven, the possibility of the next two are a given, as it could be with any other religious book/organization.

You are trying to apply logical thinking in a situation where it cannot apply. Pursuing this as a line of discussion will accomplish nothing but establish that you are an apostate.

scotoma

People are not rational beings. Don't expect them to be.

They won't tolerate a 1 degree deviation from their course.

A 180 degree deviation taking them in the opposite direction is impossible.

Do this experiment.

Fill a cup with water.

Put your finger in the cup.

Pull it out.

Did you make any difference to the cup of water? You just got your finger wet.

That's why these discussion boards are so effective. People come here. They read the arguments. They make up their mind - in time.

truth_b_known

Elders do not meet with people to have a two-way conversation. They have one purpose: Tell you how it is and make sure you openly declare that you belive it is The Truth tm . Make no mistake; failure to do so will be interpreted as openly opposing The Truth tm and they will mark you as an apostate.

What I find interesting is the over 20 years ago my father was disfellowshipped for apostacy. He was asked in a judicial committee "Who is the Faithful and Discreet Slave" which he answered all of the remaining annointed ones on earth. He was asked, "Do you consider yourself a part of the Slave Class" which he answered "yes" as he professes to be of the annointed. He was DFed for that. That was back when the Watch Tower Society published that the Faithful & Discreet Slave was indeed the remaining annointed ones on earth. Even back then it was the unwritten belief that the Governing Body and only the Governing Body is the Faithful and Discreet Slave.

konceptual99

Scotoma. Love your illustration. That perfectly sums up the pointlessness of trying to change a bean or feel that honest discussion gets you anywhere other than deeper in the shite.

SkyGreen

If what you assume about why they want to visit (ie your opinion on your kids attending meetings) then just stick to that

When its elders, you have to assume "uber dub"

Questioning all sorts of WT doctrines and policies will do you and your family NO GOOD

If you want to keep your family together and functioning peacefully, keep your thoughts on the down low with the elders!

Lots of Love.

SkyGreen

Another visit from the elders

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