by Christ Alone 205 Replies latest jw friends
Without the enthusiastic complicity and endorsement of his followers, who we rely on as the sole source of information, Christ is just another religious cult leader in the same vein as the above. His followers were never raptured, didn't go to heaven, and didn't experience any miraculous transformation into paradise. I fail to see any difference....sizemik
And we wonder how CULTS based on the Christian model are so easily formed...LOL
Dont go around making false statements attributing goodness and other good qualities to Jesus. . . . mP
Firstly . . . point out where I've attributed good qualities to Jesus.
Secondly . . . who the fuck are you to tell me what I can and can't do? . . . or does mP stand for Military Police?
To twist it to be some future prophecy that has yet to come true is totally dishonest because thats not what the text says. . . . mP
I believe the text I had in mind says in full . . .
“I assure you that the time is coming—and it is here!—when the dead will hear the voice of God’s Son, and those who hear it will live." - John 5;25
John expanded on this ressurrection prophecy in Rev. If it has been fulfilled somehow, perhaps you could point that out?
Christ used this deceptive figure of speech on several occasions, and the expectations they created are plain to see in the epistles . . . expectations that were never fulfilled, just like the expectations created in the OP examples.
Weren't the 1st century Christians just another "Jesus cult?"
They might have been considered such. But since they had Christ... they could not be just 'another' one. All the others would be copycats, mimicking what they think of him, but not actually following him.
Their leader displayed all the exact same traits . . .
Okay, let's see...
1) He openy invited followers . . . "Come be MY follower"
Yep.
2) He claimed divine origin and connection . . . "I speak not of my own originality . . . but speak the words of him that sent me." But at times was evasive . . . Q: "Are you the son of God?" . . . A: "You yourself are saying it."
He did make those claims; and he was evasive, I think, when it came to who was asking and why. Recognizing traps and such, and refusing to be caught in one.
Of course, he only has similarity to other so-called leaders if He spoke a lie.
3) He condemned established religion . . . pointing to it's flaws and demonising the leaders . . . "The Pharisees have taken the seat of Moses" "They pray in the broad ways." "Your house has been abandoned."
Okay.
So do most people here though.
4) He created a "them v us" mentality . . . "You are no part of the world" "He who is not with ME is against ME"
Well, he also said that he who is not against you is for you.
Plus, I do not think he created a them vs us mentality. It simply was going to be there. Truth vs. lies; etc.
People kicked 'them' out of the synogogues and turned on them; not the other way around. People persecuted them, not the other way around. (that did come later, but not according to the teachings or direction of Christ)
5) He invited persecution . . . "The nations will hate you on account of my name" "Let he who wants to come after me, pick up his TORTURE STAKE and follow me continually."
Knowing about and warning of is not the same as inviting.
6) He displayed hypocrisy and double standards . . . He advised the disciples to assemble some weapons (swords) and the said to Peter "He who takes up the sword will perish by the sword."
What you think is hypocrisy is misunderstanding. Perhaps Peter having that sword was a great opportunity to teach a lesson. No one was to go to war, kill, or maim FOR Christ. Not physically causing harm to another in His name. This is in tune with the rest of his teachings. Unfortunately, 'christianity' seems to have missed this lesson.
He also practiced what he preached, asked no more than what he was willing to also do... and so i cannot see a double standard here.
Unlike many people/leaders/cults/religions... who do not practice what they preach, and load burdens onto others that they, themselves, cannot and will not carry.
7) He claimed poverty and frugality . . . "The son of man has nowhere to lay his head" but they clearly they had income, as Judas was assigned to care for the money.
There is nothing in his teachings that would lead one to believe that one cannot have money. Or that one cannot work.
Only that one cannot serve two masters... and if you slave for money, then money is your master.
8 ) They proselytised enthusiastically.
Yes, they did. (is that a sign of a cult?)
9) He made ambiguous prophecies that sounded imminent, to create fear . . . "The time is coming and it is now . . . "
Now how can you know that he said something to create fear?
10) He legitimised the break-up of families . . . "I come not with peace but a sword, to seperate a mother from her daughter in law etc . . . " To a man that lost his father . . . "Let the dead bury their dead"
He did not legitimize the break-up of families. He did know that families would be broken (even if only temporarily, as his own was) because truth and lies are separate as well. As earlier, those who followed Him did not put their families out or turn on them, or persecute them. The other way around.
I will give you that the other sounds harsh. I will ask and think about it.
11) He was rejected by the mainstream and considered dangerous.
Yes.
But does being in the mainstream make one right? Or just popular? I think they're just the majority, and that makes it easy for people to follow along, rather than think for themselves and question the mainstream/traditions.
He was dangerous though... dangerous to their personal authority and control.
Without the enthusiastic complicity and endorsement of his followers, who we rely on as the sole source of information, Christ is just another religious cult leader in the same vein as the above. His followers were never raptured, didn't go to heaven, and didn't experience any miraculous transformation into paradise. I fail to see any difference.
His 'lead' is not over. He has not yet returned. He asks that we serve one another, do good to one another, show love and mercy and forgiveness. No killing, no warring, no judging, no condemning of others... just witnessing and following his teachings. The new command being to love one another as He loved us.
No one has to rely solely upon his followers as the soul source of information though. Although most need to at least hear about him, before deciding whether or not they can put their faith in him. Peace to you, tammy
A person telling others they can go staight to Jesus and ask...while dishing out special insights from Jesus/God and correcting people. Is contradicting themselves.
And you have to wonder....WHY?
I don't have to wonder. What a person is given, a person should GIVE. Why withold information when we are TOLD to witness to Him? To help others?
That one can go and learn these things for themselves (or confirm them or deny them by listening to the Spirit themselves) is not contradicting that.
No more than some people who tell us a a bit about evolution, and then say go and learn it for themselves. Or any science. Or politics. Or a social issue.
The difference is that this one is of a spiritual nature.
Since you cannot KNOW what someone else is saying or claiming to be the truth, why listen to anyone making that claim or anything they have to say at all? Why not just go straight to the source and cut out the middle man ALL TOGETHER.
You can know. Sometimes the spirit within you bears witness to the same truth. Sometimes you can find information to back that up. Sometimes you can go to Christ. Sometimes people simply enjoy hearing what others have received, perhaps to compliment something that they have received; perhaps discussing or sharing or hearing simply helps them to progress in their understanding and in their hearing.
No one has to discuss evolution either... they can just go to the source of that info.
Sometimes sharing something is simply enough to give someone else the sense of a truth... and then they can hear the rest for themselves; or hear something that adds to that understanding... so that they are all building one another UP.
If everyone can go straight to the source...anyone sharing any so called KNOWLEDGE is superfluous...and should probably get out of the way and let people get the information for THEMSELVES.
Well, that would be up to each individual, now wouldn't it?
Some might want to do that and so do that.
Some might want fellowship, giving and sharing, and so do that.
Peace to you,
tammy
marking
MP: Dont go around making false statements attributing goodness and other good qualities to Jesus. . . . mP
SIZE:
Firstly . . . point out where I've attributed good qualities to Jesus.
SIZE:
1) He openy invited followers . . . "Come be MY follower"
mP:
He only invited jews, his preaching only to jews demonstrates a racist attitude. The scripture in Mat 24 about preaching to the world, is a major exception that contradicts his original preaching mesage that is repeated many times. I made my original statement because most people would read your statement as an example of goodness.
To twist it to be some future prophecy that has yet to come true is totally dishonest because thats not what the text says. . . . mP
SIZE:
I believe the text I had in mind says in full . . .
“I assure you that the time is coming—and it is here!—when the dead will hear the voice of God’s Son, and those who hear it will live." - John 5;25
John expanded on this ressurrection prophecy in Rev. If it has been fulfilled somehow, perhaps you could point that out?
mP:
So you believe that the John of the gospels also wrote Revelation. YOu might want to do some basic research, John like today was a popular name. No where in Rev does the author identify himself as an apostles of Jesus. Scholars today will tell you they were certainly not written by the same person, the vocabulary and style of the writings show them to be from totoally different people.
Revelgation is not a book of prophecy. Its the story of someone writing about the current times. 666 = NERO. IN ancient times, they had no digits, letters did double duty and also had numeric values.
Examine the details and you will notice its all contemporary. Scholars have shown this. THe most obvious is the number of the beast whihc was originally 616 not 666.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast
Bust of Nero at Musei Capitolini,RomeIt is widely accepted by many scholars that Roman Emperor Nero (ruling 54-68) is the first Beast of Revelation 13. This interpretation was received by enumerating his name and title Neron Caesar [27] to the Number of the Beast. [4] [28] [29] An Aramaic scroll from Murabba'at, dated to "the second year of Emperor Nero", refers to him by his name and title [30] where in Hebrew it is Nron Qsr (Pronounced "Neron Kaisar"), and in Latin it is Nro Qsr (Pronounced "Nero Kaisar"). [31]
The Greek version of the name and title transliterates into Hebrew as ???? ??? , and yields a numerical value of 666: [4] [30]
| Resh (?) | Samekh (?) | Qoph (?) | Nun (?) | Vav (?) | Resh (?) | Nun (?) | Sum |
| 200 | 60 | 100 | 50 | 6 | 200 | 50 | 666 |
The Latin version of the name drops the second Nun (?), so that it appears as Nro and transliterates into Hebrew as ??? ??? , yielding 616: [4]
| Resh (?) | Samekh (?) | Qoph (?) | Vav (?) | Resh (?) | Nun (?) | Sum |
| 200 | 60 | 100 | 6 | 200 | 50 | 616 |
SIZE:
Secondly . . . who the fuck are you to tell me what I can and can't do? . . . or does mP stand for Military Police?
mP:
All i said was you should be truthful. I never commanded you to do anything. In case you didnt realise we are only able to type at a kb, here i dont have a magic want to zap anyone.
sizemik wash ur mouth with soap!
mP - He came FIRST for the lost sheep of Israel... because of a covenant they had with God. He keeps his promises. If he did not, who would trust Him? Once they rejected Him, that covenant opened up to all the nations, cultures, tribes and people of the world... on FAITH.
Faith is what Christ builds his church upon. That is the new covenant; with Israel and all those who put their faith in the Son, regardless of race, sex, age, culture, language, tribe, nation.
Peace,
tammy
