by punkofnice 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
**** You are pretty much stuffed then, if you happen to be born in a non-Chritian part of the world.******
Revelation 21 ......Refers to 2 resurrections.....the first resurrection are those who find "eternal life in this life " ....Christians
The second resurrection are those who are judged worthy for life based on their life course.
Thats MHO,
Shalom
Yes - punkofnice this is something that I have tried to get my brain cell around. A ransom is paid for immediate release and removal of the threat of death. Yet here we are still dying in the human arena 2000 yeras after the ransom was paid. I am sure someone will contribute a 'spiritual' explanation to this thread but from a gladiators point of view it seems that humanity still lives 'inter spem et metum.' (between hope and fear)
There are various views about the "ransom analogy":
First there are the different views as to who the ransome was paid, though most theologians and scholars don't think that Gospel writer was taking that analogy to its totality.
Then there is the various views as to what is happening still.
Some argue that the ransom paid for original sin (seperation from God) and that we know have received God's grace ( Forgiveness and redemption), of course we still die ( we are mortal) and we suffer ( pay for our own mistakes as individuals and as a collective).
Some argue that the original sin is paid for by death and that the ransom paid is to allow us access to Heaven.
Some argue that the ransom only reconciled Us to God, allowing us to be under His Grace, that's all.
I don't think Jebus has suffered enough during his crusafiction. He needs to hop back on that cross and take it like a man. Shit, wasn't much of a sacrifice anyhow...He was only dead for three days. Mankind has been suffering way more than Jebus did since Jebus war ressurected.
So.... almost a thousand years after Death Sentence, man Dies...
over TWO thousand and counting... since price paid... man still suffering Death...
By His own accounting His isn't very good at Keepping his Word ....with no explanation either..
Further more He wants you to base your whole Life on His alleged Word!!!!
Yes I've thought of this .... Why the wait...
Thanks for the replies, folks. I think Gladiator put it better than lil' ol' me.
...and here-in lies another problem for me and that's the : '...and there are differeing views....' stance. I used to believe it was Christian freedom and didn't really matter as long as I accepted christ. It's no better than the JW 'wait on Jehovah(TM)' get out clause.
Surely, there should be only ONE way to view things if god really is all powerful, divine and able to enlighten the world. Seems to me too many people have got too many differing interpretations.
This then, is my dilemma:
God = all powerful = Yet for some inexplicable reason is still unable to give the world clear sight of his reality in a totally conclusive way.
No God = imagination of men = unable to give the world clear sight of his reality because it's all imaginary.
Result = the same both ways - How convenient.
Whether I believe in god, am not sure or not, won't make the outcome any different. However, that outcome will be different to what people expect depending on which camp one is in.
I still see no evidence of a god who is guiding me. All I see is blind chance.
Surely, there should be only ONE way to view things if god really is all powerful, divine and able to enlighten the world. Seems to me too many people have got too many differing interpretations.
That is a valid point but since the concept of God is rather absract then it makes sense that there would be a variery of interpratitions.
People put absract notions into words via their cultural context so different cultures will express theiu view of God ina different way.
I still see no evidence of a god who is guiding me. All I see is blind chance.
That would depend on what you view as evidence, no?
Some would argue that out notion of right n wrong comes from a "moral source", some would argue that our notion of feeling "bad" when we do soemthing wrong, KNOWING it is wrong, comes for a source tring to guide us without controlling us.
PSac - I always like reading your posts as you have a calming way of writing.
but since the concept of God is rather absract then it makes sense that there would be a variery of interpratitions.
Well, now you see, this is my point I guess. If god existed he/she/it being divine would surely prevent there being such obscurity and confusion if this one were like a loving parent. I certainly wouldn't be obscure and indifferent to my children.
As far as not seeing evidence of god I s'pose for me at least, I feel god should be obvious. I'm obvious to my children. I haven't left them a collection of books full of ambiguous, hard to interpret stuff. I actually communicate with them. So, why can't god, if god is so superior?
As for why morality, that's perhaps a different thread.....but it seems to me it's a great survival technique.
I haven't been to this forum in while, but it's good to be back.
Interesting topic, this is one that I've often pondered myself. If you believe that the ransom is real then you have to more or less accept what the bible says also. John 3:16 states that: "god loved the world so much that he gave his son...", this seems quite off to me; is it really love if you continue to allow your children whom you claim to love to swim in toxic pond so to speak, and die for mellenia?
I'm certainly no fan of the WT, but so far I havn't really heard a better explanation than the WT's as to why nothing has changed in 2,000 years after Christ's death in terms of suffering and death. It seems that if this whole fairy tale is real then it points to the idea that god is allowing man to exhaust all possibilties of self rule in an effort to convert free thinking beings into robots who will bow to him for eternity because they can never do the same or better on their own.
2 Corinthians 10:1–18
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to [what we are in the] flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God; and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ; 6 and we are holding ourselves in readiness to inflict punishment for every disobedience, as soon as ? YOUR ? own obedience has been fully carried out.
Psalms chapter 2
The vastness of the universe cannot contains gods ego can it?
Until this question can be given a satisfactory answer xtianity for me is unacceptable since it shows the opposite of love, and is purely motivated by self interest on gods part. The pain and suffering doesn't seem to matter much in comparison to god winning his bet against satan as illustrated in Job's case. You would think this would be high enough price to pay for something our ancestor did mellenia ago. But he also wants us to carry a torture stake and sacrifice our free time and resources for him, and be accountable for something our ancestor did! The suffering cannot be un-remembered, if it were, we would not really be the same person since we are the sum of our experiences. This whole fairytale drama just makes less and less sense, the more you stop and apply critical thinking to it.
PSac - I always like reading your posts as you have a calming way of writing.
Thanks, greatly appreciated.
but since the concept of God is rather absract then it makes sense that there would be a variery of interpratitions.
Well, now you see, this is my point I guess. If god existed he/she/it being divine would surely prevent there being such obscurity and confusion if this one were like a loving parent. I certainly wouldn't be obscure and indifferent to my children.
Sure and I think that, in context like we speak to our kids now, that you are right, BUT that isn't what we are dealing with in terms of God and what Man has written about Him ( In out thevarious cultures).
As far as not seeing evidence of god I s'pose for me at least, I feel god should be obvious. I'm obvious to my children. I haven't left them a collection of books full of ambiguous, hard to interpret stuff. I actually communicate with them. So, why can't god, if god is so superior?
A very fair and honest question, one that I myself struggle with also.
As for why morality, that's perhaps a different thread.....but it seems to me it's a great survival technique.
Most animals survive just fine without it, perhaps even better than we do.
