Did Jesus ever claim he had to die for our sins?

by Cagefighter 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • designs
    designs

    cofty- I am implying that statement is the essence of the problem with the Jesus characer based on the misdirection that the 4 Gospels and works like Hebrews and Romans take with respect to Judiasm. See my response to MB.

  • mind blown
    mind blown

    I did find info which says Jews believe exactly that.....

    On the other hand.....Leviticus 17:11: "For the soul of the flesh is in the blood and I have assigned it for you upon the altar to provide atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that atones for the soul." and Leviticus 17:10-12

    What's that all about.....?

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Designs

    From the horse's mouth:

    'What Will the Mashiach Do?

    Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

    The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).'

    http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

    They don't seek to convert the world, like christians and muslims do. They work to dominate it.

    S

  • designs
    designs

    S- yes, a Orthodox Jew has a different concept which points up that the Jesus of the Gospels and Romans and Hebrews was the invention of others who tried to 'sound' Jewish but didn't know their Jewish history and had other motives ( develop a docile subserviant people in a Roman ruled provence).

    Read the Gospels through a Jewish lens and the errors stand out.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    'develop a docile subserviant people in a Roman ruled provence'

    There is a theory that paul was a roman agent, whose mission was to do just that. He was the kickstarter for all nt writing. If the theory is true, it's ironic that it ended up ensnaring rome a lot more than it did the jews. After a bit, jews basically rejected the new testement, the new gospel, while romans went on to embrace it to the extent of making it the state religion and then propagating the thing across most of the world. If the nt was a roman product and not an authentic jewish one, then it stands to reason that it might appeal to romans more that it would jews.

    S

  • Cagefighter
    Cagefighter

    Christ Alone and Cofty- I have to agree as our JW education brainwashing does tend to make us see things in black and white. However, the concept that Jesus is paid a "ransom" and died for our sins is a theological staple taken for granted. I am reading up on Gnostic positions and others and it seems people have always just made Jesus whom ever they wanted him to be.

    I am 90% convinced that many of the things in the gospel where inserted to make him seem like he was fulfilling the OT prophecies. I am sure some more junk got put in by the Roman Church as well.

    The story get's better and more credible over time just because people keep telling it or you heard the story from someone you respected yourself. Look at how people revere Santa Claus. Who did they hear it from? Their parents.... What came at the end of the story? Free Stuff.

  • designs
    designs

    S- Yes you see the rejection of Pauline Christianity by the Jewish community but acceptence in the Greek and Roman world, people who would not be familiar with real Judaism. Paul, whoever this was, pulled a good one on unsuspecting people. Sheeple grew by the thousands and Rome by the time of Constantine had to deal with it.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Heheh. One of the first cases of blowback. And, it's still blowing. Pun intended.

    S

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    Sorry, I haven't been able to respond since yesterday. Cofty is right in the context of Jesus being a Jew. We cannot understand the NT unless we really understand Judaism. 1st century Judaism, especially. We cannot understand Jesus either, until we understand His Jewishness (if that's a word...)

    Matthew 5:17-20 is specifically about this. It says: " Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

    The problem in interpreting why we are not still under the mosaic law is discussed and set to rest in Hebrews. Hebrews 10 specifically address the difference between the animal sacrifices and Jesus' eternal once for all time sacrifice. The Law was always meant to be a temporary arrangement until Jesus came to be the fulfillment of it. No matter how many sacrifices were made, they could not sufficiently cover all sin for all time. The animal sacrifices were the Father's symbolic picture of Jesus' death for our sins. He gave us the law to help us see that we are sinners and that the sacrifice of animals was not sufficient to cover all sins for all time. Hebrews 10 discusses this in detail.

    Galatians 3:19-25 asks "Why then was the law given at all?", and then answers the question in detail. vs 23 - 25 says: "Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."

    The law prepared the Jews for Jesus. Without the Law, Jews would not know that they were sinners. They would not have known that covetousness or envy was wrong unless the Law told them it was wrong. But when that which was complete came - Jesus - this law was to be written on their hearts and there would no longer be a need for anyone to teach them that it was wrong.

  • Cagefighter
    Cagefighter

    Christ Alone, I appreciate your perspective but I have moved on to the more historical sense of these character's in early Christianity.

    Designs- The most digestable reason for this phenomenon was that at this point 3/4 of the Roman empire were slaves. While they was a multide of deities and belief systems available and allowable to any Roman citizen or slave, they all had one thing in common. God or Gods were elitist types like Caesar. Jesus comes across as humble, down, to earth and putting value on individuals regardless of their position. Add the ease of travel and transmission of information that the Roman Empire provide and BINGO!

    Don't get me wrong. Christ is a major philosophical movement that we should credit with the basis of our own society. This was the catalyst that would lead to the kind of belief in individualism that would later spawn democracry and self-determination in my opinon.

    There is also a lot of great stuff about how to not be a jerk in there too, the key in my mind is to remember a lot of the details are opinion, editorial, and embellishment. Even if I agree or disagree I have to remember the source.

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