1914 - It was the end of the world as we knew it - things got much better! (page 2)

TheStumbler

Well, I got a reply. And it's annoyed me.

Virtually no acknowledgement of the facts I provided or any kind of refutation.

They just said morality is declining and used divorce rates, children being born out of marriages and gay people living together as examples.

What!!! Apparantly the abolition of slavery, torture, capital punishment, the establishment of human rights, equal rights for women, universal health care are not as important as what other people do with their penises! It's such small minded thinking.

my response will be something along these lines (although I havent really given it too much thought yet):

In history, marriage was as much a business arrangement as anything else, woman had little choice in who they married, they were expected to be subserviant to their husbands and couldn't divorce their husbands even if they beat them or raped them.

More people divorce today because it is easier to divorce - is it better they remain in loveless marriages? And what business is this of anyone else. Doesn't everyone have a right to choose who they, and who they don't, spend their life with.

Regarding homosexuals living together, what harm are they doing to anyone by living together and what business is it of anyone elses.

You believe homosexuality is wrong. Fine, then don't do it. But why should other people have to live by your beliefs and standards. The some personal freedoms that allow you to practice your religion freely are the same personal freedoms that allow people to make other lifestyle choices - such as who they live with and have sex with. It's hypocritical to expect personal freedom for yourself but deny it to other people.

And you must at least acknowledge that civilisation has progressed morally - the abolition of slavery, equal rights for women, abolition of judicial torture, human rights, etc. At least acknowledge that's it black and white - or is it so important to you what others do with their penises?

LostGeneration

Good info in the first e-mail, but you probably made their head explode. A mind that is controlled won't be able to venture where you are taking them, because their everlasting life with pandas and lions is being threatened. Thus they simply dismiss it all as "statistics" that aren't relevant to the world they are looking at through Watchtower glasses.

I'd stay away from the marriage and homosexual arguments. They hate gays, and have zero tolerance. Unfair of course, but no use barking up that tree.

Gotta keep it very, very simple. One question, wait for an answer. If they dodge the question, ask again. Insist they be honest before moving in. Something like "Would you have rather lived 100 years ago with no electricity, no plumbing and no modern medicine?"

Its not doctrinal, so they have to answer. Then you can expand on how things are better, one at a time. Or you can ask if these things will be in "da paradise" or if we are going back to the bronze age.

Apognophos

Yes, I agree, the points about gays won't help. "If" he thinks homosexuality is wrong, then to him, society is getting worse; equating freedom of sexuality with freedom of religion isn't going to help your argument.

PSacramento

Negative people tend to focus on negative things.

EX: Greece and Spain and Portugal and Italy ( to name just a few) are in horrifc economic stituations, things have never been so bad THERE.

Of course Sweden, Norway, Switzerland and other palces are doing just great and never been better.

Ask a person in Greece and they will say things have never been worse !

Ask a person in Sweden and they will say things are great.

prologos

stumbler: great. One reason it got better after 1914/45 was better weapons ie atomic, biological. For the first time the warmongering leaders would die too, and that made them recoil scared : Kennedy vs Krutchof, MAD. I did not mean Kennedy was a war monger, I mean generically speaking: Napolean, stalin,hitler.

for some of course the europeans, the world as it was, ended. In berlin, you could see the timeline: Ornate sculptures on buildings (courtesy of punitive money from france) build prior to 1914, and stark, function- only kind of apartments across the street, after 1918, when construction started again.

sadly, millions living in 1914/ 1918 are dead and will die , it will show where to put our trust. With all it warts its great to live now and not in the good old days. blessings

TheStumbler

Thanks for the advice,

Here was my final reply:

You've just cherry picked a couple of moral issues that you think are getting worse and ignored all of the overall improvements that I mentioned. This is confirmation bias.

Even if we accept that some moral issues are worsening it doesnt necessarily mean that morality is declining overall. The positive development far outeigh the negatives.

If the most pressing moral issues facing the world today are homosexuals living together (something that causes no harm to anyone) and a high divorce rate then you've proven my point - the world has improved! Or do you really think homosexuals living together is a worse moral crime than slavery, torture, inhumane execution, religious oppression, no human rights, authoritarian governments, domestic violence against women and sexual inequality?

And you know, homosexuals still existed hundreds of years ago, they were just violently oppressed and improsened. Do you honestly think it was a good thing that societies were less tolerant? Would you rather society was less tolerant today?

And regarding marriage, there are more divorces today because getting divorced is easier. Whether or not this is a good thing is subject but personally I would rather divorce than be stuck in a loveless marraige. But again you are idealising the past. In history marriages were business arrangements more often than not, women had little say in who they married, women were expected to be subserviant to their husbands, and women could be legally beaten and raped by their husbands. Yes divorce rates are worse but this a very narrow baromoter by which to judge an entire civilisation.

Answer me this honestly, would you rather have lived in 1900? In 1900 at least one of your children would have probably died from what is today a preventable illness, you would have had poorer health and your life would have been much shorter (60 years), you would not have had free access to healthcare (what little there was), there was no welfare state, your wife would be more likely to die during child birth, your children would have only have a 75% of reaching childhood and would have a much lower life expectancy, your daughters could not divore their husbands even if they rape and beat them, your sons would have been at risk from military conscription and would be executed or improsoned if they refused, you would enjoy much less religious freedom, you would have a lower standard of living, less material wealth and fewer material comforts. Would you honestly rather live in 1900? Would all of this be a price worth paying to live in a world where h could not live with each other?

If you would then I guess this is something we cannot agree on.

Regarding less subjective measures of the world's progress, health, wealth, living standards and deaths due to war, the facts are clear - the world is improving.

whathappened

Very well thought out reply. I would say you set them straight. Their reply to you was straight off a Watchtower cd. They replied exactly as the Society has programmed them to. Maybe they will think about how reasonable and rational a different viewpoint can be. Let's hope.

Thanks for posting this, as I will probably be able to use these sound arguments in the future.

jwfacts

You sent through great information. It was a good exercise in observing how easily people filter out information so as to avoid confronting their incorrect beliefs.

Aussie Oz

A good reply but I would have ignored their points in reply as they did yours.

challenge them to answer yours one at a time.

ask for facts to back up their statements.

by the way, a great list of how things are better than ever.

oz

Black Man

Awesome thread! Bookmarking...........

1914 - It was the end of the world as we knew it - things got much better!

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