The 144,000 chosen ones...I'm so confused (page 2)

Kenneson

Let's look at Rev. 14. Oh, yes, "Mount Zion," that's symbolic.
"A Lamb," that's symbolic. 144,000--now that's literal according to JW's. "Name written on foreheads," that's symbolic. "Four animals," that's symbolic. "The elders," that's symbolic. "Not been defiled with women," that's symbolic.
If all else is symbolic, why not the number 144,000?

Will Power

Jehovah's purpose has always been to restore the earth to a paradise. God's will and stated purpose is to bring the dead back to life on earth in paradise.

Could you please humor me and give the bible passage - with context please where this is stated? Thanks

kes152

Dearest SoMany..

Regarding the 'truth' of the matter:

How could John know exactly how many people were there?

When John was there, he heard a number of those to be sealed, one hundred forty four thousand, sealed out of EVERY tribe of the sons of Israel. Contrary to the JWs, the truth is this is LITERAL "Israel." there is a great multitude that no man could number seen standing in sight of the throne in HEAVEN, worshipping God IN HIS TEMPLE in HEAVEN with the 144,000 firstfruits.

Revelation 7:4
Revelation 7:9, 15
Revelation 5:9, 10

How did he know that they were representing the 12 tribes of Israel?

John was not told they 'represented' the 12 tribes, he was told they ARE the 12 tribes.

How do you know if you are in the 144,000?

The same way he calls the great multitude to go to heaven. It is found in Romans 8:14-17. Notice.. ALL who are led by God's spirit go to heaven. The great multitude are 'led by God's spirit' therefore they go to heaven.

What happens when all the spaces fill up, like people who are born 1,000 years from now...will they never have a chance?

When the 144,000 and the great multitude have all been gathered in, then God will turn his attention back to Israel who remained in their lack of faith. Those who then put faith in God's Son will be grafted back to the vine, they will be shown mercy. And in this way, ALL of Israel will be saved.

Romans 11:25-27
Romans 11:30-32

And what about the people that were born before JW was invented?

If they are in union with Christ, they will become apart of the vine in union with Him.

John 15:1-8

What happens to the JWs that aren't chosen? And the non-JWs?

Actually, the JWs are the ones who persecute the great multitude and the 144,000. they have "thier group" of imposters who hate and kill anyone who is a TRUE member of God's household. They know it, but they do not let their 'flock of organized people' know it.

John 10:12, 13

Peace to you,
Aaron

Sargon

I was wondering if homosexual pedophiles could be included in the 144.000, since they haven't been defiled by women?

They faught like warrior poets...and gained their freedom.

hooberus

"You Know" says that the 144,000 being spiritual virgins means that they are not corrupter spiritually. This would seem to disqualify JW's who died before 1928 as they:

1. followed the satanic pyramid until they died.

2. creature worshipped Charles Russell

3. creature worshipped their Jesus

4. saluted the idolatrous flag.

Just one of these would have caused them to lose their spiritual virginity, let alone all of them being practiced at the same time. Also the light can't get brighter for the ones who died in this false worship!

I am new here can someone please tell me how to "quote" others?

Yadirf

Kenneson

Let's look at Rev. 14. Oh, yes, "Mount Zion," that's symbolic.
"A Lamb," that's symbolic. 144,000--now that's literal according to JW's. "Name written on foreheads," that's symbolic. "Four animals," that's symbolic. "The elders," that's symbolic. "Not been defiled with women," that's symbolic.
If all else is symbolic, why not the number 144,000?

Two questions to consider:
1) Even "if all else is symbolic," what prevents the "144,000" from being a literal number? Is that possibility ruled out for some reason?

Although most of what is said in this chapter is figurative language, it certainly isn't ALL figurative. For example verse 13 speaks of, not a figurative, but a definite point in time. That verse reads: "Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them." So we see that there are no less than three things in this verse that are, not symbolic, but literal.

2)If in fact the number was intended to be symbolic, what number THEN would the "144,000" represent?

Certainly there's no doubt WHAT the number represents, and so what problem could there possibly be with the understanding that it be a literal number? None whatsoever that I can see. Because these ones are to assist Christ in ruling over a world full of people, is there really anything so unreasonable about such an exact number as this being selected to do the job? Should the reasoning be that it is too many? Or, maybe not enough? It seems only natural that it be taken literally, it appears to me.

Yadirf

Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.

LittleToe

It's not really been thought through that well, has it.

144,000 rule over the earth.
So what about after the millenium? (Rev.20:5,6)
What do they do when all things are handed back to the Father? (1 Cor.15:28)
Do perfected humans still need judges?
So, was this alll part of God's original purpose?

Ah, yes, the new scrolls! The answer to everything.

Do you sometimes think that the scale and scope of this is a little beyond the imagination of those proposing it?

Will Power

Excellent observation hooberus.

The door will open every 5 or 10 years as the tacking gets tackier. For sure the "elite" who became part of the beast must not pass go. They were the ones dispensing this spiritual food during that time. Was that proper, pure, true worship? Looks like approx 8,000 new seats have come up for bidding.

Yes little toe, its not really been thought through that well.

Still no answers to any of these questions.
State something as a fact, or truth - expect examination and questions.

You Know

"You Know" says that the 144,000 being spiritual virgins means that they are not corrupter spiritually. This would seem to disqualify JW's who died before 1928 as they:

For the most part your observation is born out of biblical illiteracy. For example: When Paul wrote to the Corinthian congregation, saying that he had personally been involved in promising them to Christ in marriage, he was also at the same time aware of numerous problems within that congregation. Some of the Corinthians claimed to belong to Paul, others to Appolos, etc. There were numerous other problems that Paul tried to correct, none of which were too dissimilar from the problems that modern day congregations suffer. The vision of Revelation, however, concerning the 144,000, is dealing with the end result and not the ongoing process of calling, choosing, and sealing of the individual 144,000. But, Christ is yet to sit as a Refiner of Jehovah's priests. So it is the purified end result that Revelation depicts and not the past, or even current, state of affairs. / You Know

You Know

Little toe

Ah, yes, the new scrolls! The answer to everything.

Not necessarily. The little scrolls have to do with reforming mankind during the 1,000 years. Jehovah hasn't revealed anything beyond the end of that period so it is impossible to know exactly what he has in mind for Christ and his 144,000 associate kings beyond that point. However, since Christ and the 144,000 will have life in themselves and will no longer be dependent upon Jehovah to support them in any way, they will be able to do whatever they want to do. Having life in themselves means that they could impart life to other creatures like the Creator himself. So, really, human imagination is the only limiting factor to the endless possibilities that will open up for the sons of God after their kingdom business is finished. / You Know

The 144,000 chosen ones...I'm so confused

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